Another Man's Treasure
JUL
10
2006

On Liberty

8:09 AM 36 comments

When I read, I like to mark my place with a 3x5 index card that I use to note page numbers and record ideas or questions inspired by my reading. A typical bookmark might have several pages noted and a few thoughts scribbled on the reverse, but I’ve been reading a book this week that, if it were longer, would easily fill an entire card with page numbers alone. It is an essay by John Stuart Mill, published in 1863, called On Liberty.

Though its worldly acclaim lies in its political implications – defending personal liberty against both tyrannical governments and societal “tyranny of the majority” – I have deeply enjoyed reading it from a less concrete perspective. When applied to religion and man’s search for truth, I have found his insights incredibly compelling.

I suppose my favorable impression is due partially to the degree to which I find my ideas falling in line with Mill’s, and certainly there may others among you who are more bored by the book than anything else. Its language is a little curious, as one might expect from a book 140 years old, but I have underlined twice as many passages in the first 60 pages of this book than I did over the entire 200+ pages of Standing for Something by Gordon B. Hinckley, another book I finished this week.

If I were able to spend a day writing I would take at least four of the topics Mill introduces and craft my own essays on the subject -- so much of the material can be applied to the Mormon-based topics recently discussed on this blog -- but for now they will have to make do in the "future writing" queue along with the rest. Instead I'll include some quotes from the first two chapters. These aren’t “Quote of the Day” style quotes designed to be grasped easily in passing; the ideas Mill presents demand some thought and exploration to be useful.

I’m also taking some liberty in formatting these quotes; Mill uses commas the way a valley girl says “like,” so when the original formatting seems to muddle the idea, I’ll change it below.

“So natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about, that religious freedom has hardly anywhere been practically realized, except where religious indifference … has added its weight to the scale.”

“People are accustomed to believe, and have been encouraged in the belief by some who aspire to the character of philosophers, that their feelings … are better than reasons and render reasons unnecessary.”

“The disposition of mankind, whether as rulers or as citizens, to impose their opinions and inclinations as a rule of conduct on others, is so energetically supported by some of the best and some of the worst feelings incident to human nature, that it is hardly kept under restraint by anything but a want of power.”

“If all mankind, minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”

The "evil" of suppressing contrary opinions:
“If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.”

“[One is confident of his beliefs] because he has kept his mind open to criticism of his opinions and conduct. Because it has been his practice to listen to all that could be said against him; to profit by as much of it was just, and expound to himself, and upon occasion to others, the fallacy of what was fallacious. Because he has felt that the only way in which a human being can make some approach to knowing the whole of a subject is by hearing what can be said about it by persons of every variety of opinion, and studying all modes in which it can be looked at by every character of mind. No wise man ever acquired his wisdom in any mode but this; nor is it in the nature of human intellect to become wise in any other manner.”

Speaking of the Bible:
“He has thus, on one hand, a collection of ethical maxims, which he believes to have been vouchsafed to him by infallible wisdom as rules for his government; and on the other, a set of every-day judgments and practices, which go a certain length with some of those maxims, not so great a length with others, stand in direct opposition to some, and are, on the whole, a compromise between the Christian creed and the interests and suggestions of worldly life. To the first of these standards he gives his homage; to the other is his real allegiance… Whenever conduct is concerned, they look around for Mr. A and B to direct them how far to go in obeying Christ.”

“Who can compute what the world loses in the multitude of promising intellects combined with timid characters who dare not follow out any bold, vigorous, independent train of thought, lest it should land them in something whitch would admit of being considered irreligious or immoral?”

In political and philosophical theories, as well as in persons, success discloses faults and infirmities which failure might have concealed from observation.”

“The fatal tendency of mankind to leave off thinking about a thing when it is no longer doubtful is the cause of half their errors.”

“While everyone knows himself to be fallible, few think it necessary to take any precautions against their own fallibility, or admit the supposition that any opinion of which they feel very certain may be one of the examples of the error to which they acknowledge themselves to be liable.”

“It is also often argued, and still oftener thought, that none but bad men would desire to weaken these (religious) beliefs… This mode of thinking makes justification of restraints on discussions not a question of the truth of the doctrines, but of their usefulness.”

“Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves then by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest.”

“To refuse hearing to an opinion because they are sure it is false, it to assume that their certainty is absolute certainty.”

“We are capable of rectifying our mistakes by discussion and experience. Not by experience alone. There must be discussion to show how experience is to be interpreted.”

“Very few facts are able to tell their own story without comments to bring out their meaning.”

“In the opinion, not of bad men but of the best men, no belief which is contrary to truth can be really useful.”

“Men are not more zealous for truth than they often are for error, and a sufficient application of legal or social penalties will generally succeed in stopping the propagation of either.”

“No one can be a great thinker who does not recognize, that as a thinker it is his first duty to follow his intellect to whatever conclusion it may lead. Truth gains more even by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself, than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.”

“However unwillingly a person how has a strong opinion may admit the possibility that his opinion may be false, he ought to be moved by the consideration that however true it may be, if it is not fully, frequently, and fearlessly discussed, it will be held as a dead dogma, not a living truth.”

“If the cultivation of understanding consists in one thing more than in another, it is surely in learning the grounds of one’s own opinions. Whatever people believe, on subjects on which it is of the first importance to believe rightly, they ought to be able to defend against at least the common objections.”

“Mankind ought to have a rational assurance that all objections have been satisfactorily answered; and how are they to be answered if that which requires to be answered is not spoken?”

“People believe what they have always heard lauded and never discussed.”

“As a means to attaining any positive knowledge or conviction worthy the name, (negative logic) cannot be valued too highly; and until people are again systematically trained to it, there will be few great thinkers, and a low general average of intellect.”

“If there are any persons who contest a received opinion, let us thank them for it, open our minds to listen to them, and rejoice that there is someone to do for us what we otherwise ought, if we have any regard for either the certainty or the vitality of our convictions to do with much greater labor for ourselves.”

“No sober judge of human affairs will feel bound to be indignant because those who force on our notice truths which we should otherwise have overlooked, overlook some of those which we see.”

“When there are persons to be found who form an exception to the apparent unanimity of the world on any subject, even if the world is in the right, it is always probably that the dissentients have something worth hearing to say for themselves, and that truth would lose something by their silence.”

“There is always hope when people are forced to listen to both sides; it is when they attend only to one that errors harden into prejudices, and truth itself ceases to have the effect of truth, by being exaggerated into falsehood.”

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Your Comments

July 10, 2006 at 2:39 PM [# 1]Ray
I love the writings of John Stuart Mill. He is one of the greatest commentators on human behavior and liberty I have ever read, and, unfortunately, one of the least known of the great ones. I would add only one thought of my own to those of Mill that Paul included (one that I am positive is addressed in Mill's writings) - that civility and ridicule affect the free flow of discussion, and illuminate one's truest dedication to that free flow, than perhaps any other aspect. I believe that tolerance and love are incompatible with ridicule, and that the type of liberty on which Mill expounds is based as much on the absence of ridicule as it is on the mere presence of "free and open speech."

There is much to gain from deep and thoughtful discussion; there is very little to gain from argument - and the two are not the same, even if the words used are very similar. I have gained much from many discussions with people whose perceptions are VERY different than mine, and those percpetions have (in MANY instances) altered my own; I have gained almost nothing from arguments disguised as discussions, and those arguments have never led to deep insights and changed my perceptions. Therefore, I will discuss just about anything with anyone, but I will argue about very little with very.
July 10, 2006 at 5:05 PM [# 2]Tom
Maybe 15 or so years ago I bought the same book in a used book store. Indeed, Mill is a fascinating thinker, and I find his writings very intriguing. He wrote another book on ultilitarianism a part of which, if I remember, was on the utiliy of religion. If you think you like Mill, but find yourself a true religious believer-- you my find you no longer like Mill after reading that essay.

Ray's comment is interesting about argument, as I would counter that Mill's entire life was about argument. Indeed, he often refers to others by name in his writings to specifically point out how he disagrees with their position or philosophy. Arguments become personal when one internalizes the dispute, but that is a sense of perception. In fact if there is no conflict, there can be no open discussion.

The verb argue is defined (on dictionary.com) as:

ar·gue
v. ar·gued, ar·gu·ing, ar·gues
v. tr.
1.To put forth reasons for or against; debate: “It is time to stop arguing tax-rate reductions and to enact them” (Paul Craig Roberts).
2.To attempt to prove by reasoning; maintain or contend: The speaker argued that more immigrants should be admitted to the country.
3.To give evidence of; indicate: “Similarities cannot always be used to argue descent” (Isaac Asimov).
4.To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting reasons: argued the clerk into lowering the price.

v. intr.
To put forth reasons for or against something: argued for dismissal of the case; argued against an immediate counterattack.
To engage in a quarrel; dispute.

[Middle English arguen, from Old French arguer, from Latin argtre, to babble, chatter, frequentative of arguere, to make clear. See arg- in Indo-European Roots.]
argu·er n.
Synonyms: argue, quarrel, 1wrangle, squabble, bicker
These verbs denote verbal exchange expressing conflict. To argue is to present reasons or facts in order to persuade someone of something: “I am not arguing with youI am telling you” (James McNeill Whistler). Quarrel stresses hostility: The children quarreled over whose turn it was to wash the dishes. Wrangle refers to loud, contentious argument: “audiences... who can be overheard wrangling about film facts in restaurants and coffee houses” (Sheila Benson). Squabble suggests petty or trivial argument: “The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin... would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities” (Theodore Roosevelt). Bicker connotes sharp, persistent, bad-tempered exchange: The senators bickered about the President's tax proposal for weeks. See also synonyms at discuss See also synonyms at indicate


Argument sounds just like what Mill expected from his reader, or hoped for, at least.
July 10, 2006 at 7:31 PM [# 3]Tom
I have looked up Mill's essay on Utility of Religion, and find that I was wrong, he did not publish that with his Utilitarinanism, but rather with his Three Essays on Religion. Having skimmed it again these many years later, I am convinced, if you like organized religion, don't read Mill expecting to find any support-- you will get none.
July 11, 2006 at 2:03 PM [# 4]Paul
This is a little long, but the idea of defining what is or isn't an argument calls to mind Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch. Here's part of it; a man is visiting an argument clinic, hoping to pay for a good debate:

M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.
(leaves room)
July 11, 2006 at 4:46 PM [# 5]Tom
Bravo! That was worth the five minutes :)
July 12, 2006 at 10:30 AM [# 6]Ray
Just because Mill doesn't support religion doesn't mean someone who is religious can't appreciate his works. I repeat, I have read his writings and have LOVED them. He was a brilliant man. I think he is exactly right when it comes to MANY of his comments about religion - including many of those, Tom, with which you seem to think I would disagree.

You said, "If you think you like Mill, but find yourself a true religious believer -- you may find you no longer like Mill after reading that essay." I repeat, I HAVE READ THAT ESSAY, and it doesn't change at all my impressions of him as a thinker and commentator on human nature and social issues. Being religious does NOT automatically mean bing close-minded and unaccepting of someone who is not religious, Tom, as your statement implies. I have MANY friends from college whom I liked very much, and who were brilliant intellectuals, but whose views and lifestyles I did not like or accept. As I've said in the past, their views and our discussions often
influenced and even altered my own perceptions, and I am EXTREMELY grateful for the additional perspective they provided.

As to the whole "argue" thread, I am perfectly willing to admit I chose the incorrect word - strictly from a linguists viewpoint. Substitute quarrel or bicker or squabble or wrangle - or any other word that denotes arguing simply for the sake of arguing without any real attempt to understand and internalize - and you have what I meant. I didn't even attempt to choose a word carefully; I simply used the first word that came to mind.

Paul, I LOVED the Monty Python excerpt. It is brilliant.
July 12, 2006 at 11:02 AM [# 7]Paul
It's even funnier hearing it. Here's an mp3 to enjoy: http://paul.malan.org/music/the-argument-clinic.mp3
July 12, 2006 at 5:06 PM [# 8]Tom
If religious belief be indeed so necessary to mankind, as we are continually assured that it is, there is great reason to lament, that the intellectual grounds of it should require to be backed by moral bribery or subornation of the understanding. Such a state of things is most uncomfortable even for those who may, without actual insincerity, describe themselves as believers; and still worse as regards those who, having consciously ceased to find the evidences of religion convincing, are withheld from saying so lest they should aid in doing an irreparable injury to mankind. It is a most painful position to a conscientious and cultivated mind, to be drawn in contrary directions by the two noblest of all objects of pursuit, truth, and the general good. Such a conflict must inevitably produce a growing indifference to one or other of these objects, most probably to both. Many who could render giant's service both to truth and to mankind if they believed that they could serve the one without loss to the other, are either totally paralysed, or led to confine their exertions to matters of minor detail, by the apprehension that any real freedom of speculation, or any considerable strengthening or enlargement of the thinking faculties of mankind at large, might, by making them unbelievers, be the surest way to render them vicious and miserable. Many, again, having observed in others or experienced in themselves elevated feelings which they imagine incapable of emanating from any other source than religion, have an honest, aversion to anything tending, as they think, to dry up the fountain of such feelings. They, therefore, either dislike and disparage all philosophy, or addict themselves with intolerant zeal to those forms of it in which intuition usurps the place of evidence, and internal feeling is made the test of objective truth. The whole of the prevalent metaphysics of the present century is one tissue of suborned evidence in favour of religion; often of Deism only, but in any case involving a misapplication of noble impulses and speculative capacities, among the most deplorable of those wretched wastes of human faculties which make us wonder that enough is left to keep mankind progressive, at however slow a pace. It is time to consider, more impartially and therefore more deliberately than is usually done, whether all this straining to prop up beliefs which require so great an expense of intellectual toil and ingenuity to keep them standing, yields any sufficient return in human well being; and whether that end would not be better served by a frank recognition that certain subjects are inaccessible to our faculties, and by the application of the same mental powers to the strengthening and enlargement of those other sources of virtue and happiness which stand in no need of the support or sanction of supernatural beliefs and inducements.

JSM, The Utility of Religion
http://www.la.utexas.edu/research/poltheory/mill/three/utilrelig.html
July 12, 2006 at 7:04 PM [# 9]Tom
My initial comments on whether one can like Mill's religious views were directed to all who may read, but Ray and I have a knack for discussing things on Paul's blog, so I will continue this just a bit, if I may.

Ray, how is it that JSM is "a brilliant man" with whom you often find agreement and admiration for his thoughts on "human nature and social issues" and yet, when I posit similar philosphical positions, you interpret it as though I am attacking you, your family and your religious beliefs? Is there no ground for intellectual discussion with me for which you may not agree yet see the intellectual legitimacy of the counterpoint?

In our last exchange on this blog, I stated unequivocally: "Feelings are a great contributor to insight and personal comfort/satisfaction, but they do not verify the veracity of anything. . . I am not trying to belittle the "feeling of the Spirit." I am only pointing out that feelings do not differentiate truth from fiction."

Is that so different than JSM lamenting that "Many, again, having observed in others or experienced in themselves elevated feelings which they imagine incapable of emanating from any other source than religion, have an honest, aversion to anything tending, as they think, to dry up the fountain of such feelings. They, therefore, either dislike and disparage all philosophy, or addict themselves with intolerant zeal to those forms of it in which intuition usurps the place of evidence, and internal feeling is made the test of objective truth."

I find the arguments made quite similar, yet you defensively claimed that I was merely "chalk[ing] up the dearest thing in [your] life other than Michelle to a "set of psychological and physiological responses" that [you] don't recognize and understand."

I need not belittle you to feel good about myself. I engage in these types of discourse with you because you are an intelligent man whom I believe can look past the superficial elements of religious discourse and discuss the philosophy and origins of religious belief and their position in modern intellectualism. If you don't want such a discourse, that is fine. I won't bait you anymore, but rest assured I have not come to my opinions merely from superficial dissatisfaction with any particular principle or tenent of the religion. Most of my thoughts on religion are highly developed over years and years of study and analysis.
July 12, 2006 at 8:15 PM [# 10]Ray
To Mill in a moment.

Tom, you said, "rest assured I have not come to my opinions merely from superficial dissatisfaction with any particular principle or tenent of the religion. Most of my thoughts on religion are highly developed over years and years of study and analysis." I have never accused you of reaching your conclusions blithely or easily or ignorantly or reactively or superficially. I have never belittled your intellect or sincerity or morality. I have always said that I believe you have thought long and hard to reach your conclusions. I have disagreed with many of your comments, but I also have agreed with many of them - on balance, probably agreed more than disagreed over the years, but that's just a guess. And that, Tom, is the heart of my assertion about liberty and tolerance - and my frustration over our latest dialogue in the closed thread.

First, there is a HUGE difference in someone saying that "many" religious people react as Mill describes (which is his actual word and with which I agree completely - both in his time and now, both inside and outside of the Mormon Church) and asserting that it takes dishonesty and mental gymnastics to reach the conclusions I have reached (which are your actual words). That having been said, I am going to tackle this one by ignoring the closed blog stream and focusing solely on this one to try to illustrate my point about Mill and the original quotes Paul included in this posting.

My original response addressed two things: first, my admiration of Mill and his writings; and, second, my belief that civility and the lack of ridicule are vital to the type of discussion that enlightens and shapes perception. I was hoping for a conversation that would explore those two thoughts, particularly the latter. What I got, instead, was the following, paraphrased but technically accurate:

1) A symantic lecture on the meaning of a word I chose to use - taking the "letter" of the definition and ignoring the "spirit" of how I actually used it. In all seriousness, why did you post the dictionary definitions? ANY intelligent person who read my posting would be able to see that I was speaking of civility and ridicule (attitudes) not simple disagreement (argument). Yes, I used a technically incorrect word, but the context was crystal clear. Given that clarity, what purpose did that prticular posting serve?

2) A statement of disbelief as to the accuracy of my admiration for Mill - essentially a statement that if I had read all of his works I would not admire him SIMPLY because of his view on religion and religious belief. (I know it wasn't directed exclusively or perhaps even primarily at me, but I certainly was one of the targets - and I was the one whose comment prompted your response.) Also, that one shouldn't look to Mill for support of religion - which I never claimed.

My frustration is that your response to my posting didn't address IN ANY WAY what I actually said. You ignored the message regarding the importance of attitude, focused extensively on a triviality (defining alternate words I should have used to make my point), and then questioned the truth of my statement. ("If you really had . . . you wouldn't say . . .") It was squabbling, as you yourself had just defined it.

Tom, in all seriousness, you questioned how someone who is religious (like myself) could possibly like Mill, as I had stated I do. Therefore, I will try to answer that question - as well as the other ones you just asked. I will try to stay precisely on point, so that this can be a constructive discussion (argument) and not turn into a squabble.

I have to break for a few minutes to feed my spirit and continue the indoctrination of my children (I'm smiling.), so I will focus on answers in a new posting after we read scriptures and pray.
July 12, 2006 at 9:40 PM [# 11]Ray
Q1. "How is it that JSM is "a brilliant man" with whom you often find agreement and admiration for his thoughts on "human nature and social issues" and yet, when I posit similar philosphical positions, you interpret it as though I am attacking you, your family and your religious beliefs? Is there no ground for intellectual discussion with me for which you may not agree yet see the intellectual legitimacy of the counterpoint?"

A1. John Stuart Mill made both general and specific philosophical statements about liberty, tolerance, civil discourse, religion, etc. Many of them are accusatory in nature and disparaging of human tendencies and institutions, including religion, but they almost always include qualifiers such as "many" or "if" or "probably" or "should" or "might" or anything else that marks the statements as general statements of perceived truth. In many cases, he names the one with whom he disagrees and is more specific, but lacking attribution he remains general.

On the other hand, Tom, your argument turned personal and insulting. You accused me of being dishonest; you said I had to exercise mental gymnastics to reach my conclusions; you implied fairly strongly that new converts to the Mormon Church had to be either ignorant of truth or mental midgets; etc. (Those are not my impressions; they are your actual words.) You were VERY condescending, and everyone recognized that condescension. Think about this: We have had some rather pointed discussions in the past, and I have not refused to continue them. It was only when it became apparent that there was no discussion that might lead to some degree of enlightenment that I bowed out. (Just as a simple example, there were very few questions in the last postings asking for clarification and insight - just assertions of our own perspectives.) We both were exchanging broadsides, not looking for insights, and I stopped as soon as I realized what was happening.

Q2. "In our last exchange on this blog, I stated unequivocally: "Feelings are a great contributor to insight and personal comfort/satisfaction, but they do not verify the veracity of anything. . . I am not trying to belittle the "feeling of the Spirit." I am only pointing out that feelings do not differentiate truth from fiction."

"Is that so different than JSM lamenting that "Many, again, having observed in others or experienced in themselves elevated feelings which they imagine incapable of emanating from any other source than religion, have an honest, aversion to anything tending, as they think, to dry up the fountain of such feelings. They, therefore, either dislike and disparage all philosophy, or addict themselves with intolerant zeal to those forms of it in which intuition usurps the place of evidence, and internal feeling is made the test of objective truth."

A2. It is not different, and I agree with both your statement and Mill's. As I explained in my own response, I do not rely on "feelings" to form the basis of my convictions. They can be manipulated too easily. My convictions are outside the scope of your and Mill's quotes, as they have been formed by my experiences - the EVIDENCE I believe I have SEEN as I have tried to PRACTICE the beliefs I have developed. I believe I have SEEN EVIDENCE of many things, but I do not believe that has led me to "dislike and disparage all philosophy" or become addicted to "those forms of it in which intuition usurps the place of evidence, and internal feeling is made the test of objective truth." I could be wrong, Tom, but I believe I have read and appreciate philosophy as much as you have and do, and I believe strongly that internal feeling is NOT the test of objective truth.

My original point was simply that one's attitude during a discussion (argument) has as much impact on that discussion as anything else. The type of truly open dialogue (even that which qualifies as argument) I enjoy most is one in which ridicule is absent, differences are accepted, and the central focus in on understanding. There are many people more intellectually gifted than I, and there are many people more spiritually in-tune than I, so I try not to let myself bend to either extreme. I try to reach a balance that both my heart AND my mind can accept, so that I don't succumb to the human tendency Mill describes - "It is a most painful position to a conscientious and cultivated mind, to be drawn in contrary directions by the two noblest of all objects of pursuit, truth, and the general good. Such a conflict must inevitably produce a growing indifference to one or other of these objects, most probably to both."

I believe he has nailed the tendency, but I disagee with its inevitability. I believe in an inherent struggle between absolute truth and the general good, and that the "natural man" avoids that struggle - just as Mill states. I am trying to be peculiar, so I choose to embrace the struggle. I have chosen the pain of the middle.
July 12, 2006 at 11:55 PM [# 12]Tom
In all seriousness, why did you post the dictionary definitions?

Fishermen call it chum or blood bait. Have you ever been fishing for catfish and used "catfish charlie"? Boy, that stuff stinks, but the fish always bite. ;-)
July 13, 2006 at 12:33 AM [# 13]Tom
Thanks, Ray. This was the kind of exchange I hoped to get from you. I did not need to hear your testimony. I wanted to hear what your head was saying, not your heart. To many latter-day saints there is no separation between heart and mind, but I knew you thought about things deeply, and I wanted to know what those thoughts are-- for I already knew you had a testimony of mormon doctrine.

As to my original comments on mental gymnastics, I think Mill found similar tendencies by making the following statement: "there is great reason to lament, that the intellectual grounds of [religion] should require [it] to be backed by moral bribery or subornation of the understanding."

Clearly my words are not as eloquant as Mill's, and perhaps my Texas upbringing leads me to be a bit over-direct, but I think in most instances in our previous exchange I spoke in generalities and about tendencies (just as you indicated Mill often did) rather than pointing out your or your family.

Even at the time, I reiterated that "I was not classifying any particular member, especially you or your family, Ray, but I stand by my statement that the church is "geared" for mental midgets. Some of America's brightest people are Latter-Day Saints, and my characterization was not about their mental abilities, but about their tendencies and the tendencies of the church to discuss only the bare basics. . ." And yes, I remember that you agreed and acknowledged the tendency of the Church to focus on the basics.

I bring these issues up, not to reopen that discussion, but merely to point out that I used the same methods of pointing out "generalities and tendencies" that Mill used to discuss issues of religion that were not necessarily popular in Victorian England. The same methods you now appreciate but at the time personalized and took as an assault upon you. In sincerity, they were never meant to be taken too personally, and I am sorry if my lack of eloquance lowered the intellectual value of the thread. Nevertheless, I hope we can get past that and I am glad we can discuss some of Mill's issues that Paul raised.

One of the quotes Paul raised was :
“It is also often argued, and still oftener thought, that none but bad men would desire to weaken these (religious) beliefs. This mode of thinking makes justification of restraints on discussions not a question of the truth of the doctrines, but of their usefulness.”

Today, one of the most serious issues in inter-faith dialogue, it seems, is dealing with restraints on discussion. This is especially true in my experiences in the Muslim world. The Danish cartoon controversy, or the fatwah's against Salmon Rushdie, perhaps speak most loudly to this issue. While lack of discussion of controversial topics in LDS history or doctrine was the point of our previous discussion, the issue is much broader than just applicable to Mormonism, Islam or any particular religion.

How do religionists get past the idea of topics too holy to discuss in open dialogue? Mill argued that principles that lead one to close his mind to other opinions lose its usefulness to mankind. That is clearly not a concept that has taken hold in much of the world. For religion has not lost its usefulness to the overwhelming majority of the world. Perhaps as Ray stated, it is a tendency but not an inevitablity.

I think it is because humans are genetically predisposed to believe in religion, the supernatural, or even that perhaps the mental conflict of not knowing the certainty of certain things leads mankind to fill in the blanks with supernatural explanations. But the conflict arises when this genetic predisposition faces factual or logical contradictions.

In the case of many Muslims, this conflict has lead to violent reactions to seemingly harmless cartoons. In the case of the Mormon church, it has lead to a institutionalized distancing from history and critique. How do we thus move past the restraints on discussion and truly search for truth?


Got to go work. . .yeah, imagine that. Perhaps more later.
July 13, 2006 at 1:57 AM [# 14]Marina
Previous to this posting, my only brush with Mill was in a philosophy class I took at Texas Tech, which was probably the most interesting class I have taken to date. I really like the quotes you posted, Paul, and have also gone online and read more of Mill. It is interesting that his writings still apply quite well to today's world. We have come so far in the sciences, technology, medicine, etc., yet it seems that man is man and judging from the applicabilty of Mill's writings, man has not changed all that much. I haven't decided if that is reassuring or disheartening?!
July 13, 2006 at 9:35 AM [# 15]Clifton
I find the discussions on this site very invigorating. My local church family has no one with which I can have discussions that go beyond , “I know the church is true and I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.” About three months ago I wrote my stake president , thinking I might get some answers to questions that I have about the gospel. It took him about a month to reply and he said, “I know that the church is true and I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.” Not one word was said in reply to my questions.

Before the letter came out about not writing General Authorities, I wrote a couple of letters to the brethren in SLC. Basic answer, “I know the church is true and I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God”.

I wrote the Presiding Bishop about the church not paying a living wage to church custodians. The reply was that the prophet had approved the pay scale, so don’t worry yourself about this policy. Duh, so what was he saying; the prophet wants to always have the poor among us?

It is easy to take these types of discussions too personal, because they are so important to us as individuals.

My grandmother often said that family should never discuss politics or religion. I guess that is why we had such dull family reunions. I personally think these two areas, politics and religion, are the most important discussions a family can consider. These type family discussions lead to children learning to think for themselves. They observe that there are few things cut in stone and nothing should be so sacred as to prevent new ideas. Ok, I plead guilty, I did raise Tom.

As a good Mormon, I find it very difficult to discuss doctrine with other good Mormons because I run into the problem of “I know”. When someone says, “I know” about things that are not provable that ends an intelligent evaluation. I think “I believe” is always a better option when discussing metaphysical subjects.

Has anyone reading this site ever had the experience of knowing beyond a shadow of doubt something and then later finding out that you were wrong? I have had this experience more than once. Example: I though for thirty years that the doctrine of blood atonement was a true church doctrine. Just this past year, the church public information officer released a letter to the press, I assume with First Presidency approval, that blood atonement was not now or had never been church doctrine. I nearly went into cardiac arrest. Never been and not now? What about the blood atonement of Jesus Christ? What about the law for 160 years in Utah allowing for execution by firing squad so that the blood would run upon the ground as a form of atonement? What about the ordinances that I performed in the temple for thirty years? See, I knew beyond a shadow of doubt, but I was wrong and I repent for preaching that doctrine in church meetings as a Branch President and Bishop for 13 years.

I too, like Ray have had experiences in the Mormon Church that I cannot explain on a physical level, try as I may. To complicate matters, I also had similar experiences before I joined the church. Being a convert as an adult may complicate the evaluation of the origin of these experiences for me. I guess it tends to label me an agnostic Mormon.

J.S. Mill is a source to help us in our search for understanding. Of course, so is Jeffrey Nielsen, the recently fired professor of philosophy at BYU.

I have children that have attended and graduated from BYU, with my encouragement. I am not so sure I would encourage my grandchildren to attend BYU at this time. What are the brethren afraid of? Do they truly believe that they can prevent our children from being exposed to ideas contrary to church doctrine? I would prefer my grandchildren heard contrary ideas at a place with strong Latter-day Saints as teachers so that they could have some intelligent input by believers. Do the brethren truly think that our doctrine is so perfect that it cannot be improved by educated members?

Of course, I do remember a question in a sacred environment that asked a preacher if he had been trained in the gospel. In my humble opinion, a true education requires one to look at conflicting ideas, make an evaluation, and then conclude. Looking at Paul as an example of a BYU student, does give me some hope that BYU does not stifle the intellect.

Last question - Would BYU fire Mill, Einstein, Plato or possibly even Jesus, because of their radical teachings?
July 13, 2006 at 10:24 AM [# 16]Paul
Cliff,

I do find it interesting that BYU chose not to renew Nielsen's contract, but I do not think they acted unusually in so deciding.

If I were in the position of authority at Ford Motor Co. and published an opinion piece in the local paper decrying Ford and elevating the status of Chevy, I should very well expect to lose my job.

So, too, should Nielsen have expected to lose his job. His employer is Church-owned, and the Church has clearly chosen its opponent in supporters of gay marriage. By publicly questioning his "boss" and supporting the competition, he stepped off a very steep ledge, from which it would have been more surprising if he actually had been able to recover.

But I'm only taking Independent Study courses on the internet this term so maybe I've just lost the light I normally convey from the Y! :)
July 13, 2006 at 11:02 AM [# 17]Clifton
I agree that past history should have warned him that he would lose his job.
The point I find disagreeable is that the church is against the civil rights of Americans to have equal treatment under the laws of a secular democratic nation.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness----

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated that we believe that people should be allowed to believe what ever they so desire.
July 13, 2006 at 2:46 PM [# 18]Paul
Kobe Bryant lost a Sprite deal when his actions didn't meet the image they were trying to portray; were his rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness curtailed?

If you were a shareholder in Microsoft and prominent MS manager publicly promoted Linux as a better alternative than Windows, would you expect that manager should keep his job?

Nielsen's employer, against whom he publicy spoke, just happens to be sponsored by the Church instead of Sprite. His rights were no more infringed upon than were Kobe Bryant's. The university is certainly not behaving any differently than have several other companies and universities.
July 13, 2006 at 4:07 PM [# 19]Clifton
I guess I am not verbal enough to make my point.
I think the church has every right to fire Nielsen. I just don't think it was a Christian response or a response that would reflect well on a university's intellectual freedom.
I find it hard to equate a religious institution with a corporation, but I guess that is because I am naive.
July 13, 2006 at 7:52 PM [# 20]Ray
Two quick points:

1) The tendency to stifle opposing views is universal - NOT limited to the "religious." If you doubt that, look at hate crimes laws, censorship of anything anti-homosexual, labeling as homophobic those (like me) who oppose homosexual practice on moral grounds but also oppose laws punishing its practice, and MANY other current examples of the left.

The extreme left and the extreme right are exactly the same in their insistence on uniformity. The right says directly, "I'm right; if you disagree with me, you are wrong." The left says, "There is right in everyone's perspective - as long as you don't disagree with that statement - then you are wrong." It's the same stance. Those of us in the middle somewhere get labeled by both as the other - and get called weak for not "taking a stand against the other." Stereotypes only add to that labeling. MANY of my political opinions are definitely left of center, but it is assumed that, because I am Mormon and personally conservative in my own life, I also must be politically conservative.

We, in general, are more upset at the religious (especially Christians) for their narrowmindedness for two reasons: first, they tend to oppose more things than the non-religious, so they anger more people; second, based on the teachings of the person they profess to follow, they are acting in direct opposition to those teachings by being intolerant. It is difficult to preach an ideal but keep in mind humanity's inability to live that ideal - the conflict Mill mentions between the "truth" and the "general good." The non-religious often are just as vehement in their intellectual hypocrisy, but the religious add theological hypocrisy with their intolerance.

2) Opposing gay "marriage" is NOT hypocritical and a denial of civil liberties. Let me make one thing clear: Unless our society is willing to prohibit ALL forms of fornication (hetero- AND homo-sexual), I will argue against ANY laws punishing homosexual activity. Such laws would be legislative hypocrisy. Given our current societal situation, I also support arrangements like civil unions that allow an individual to designate ANY other individual as the receiver of civil benefits like survivorship benefits, hospital visitation rights, health benefits, etc. (not enough time for a list of reasonable length)

However, redefining a word is not the answer. Creating a new clasification to match the actual arrangement is. Making the exercise of a tendency, no matter how natural, a "civil liberty" opens a Pandora's box that, if followed logically and consistently, could destroy all semblence of societal restriction on other exercises of natural tendencies - like pedophilia, abuse of all kinds, explosive rage, true homophobia, etc. I am not willing to try to draw those distincitons - especially when a simple solution is capable of providing the practical benefits that lie at the heart of the social issue. Trying to use the courts to force me to accept a gay couple as "married" - and then using that designation to pressure organizations that refuse to accept that designation into submission (as is happening to the Catholic Church's Adoption Service in Massachusetts) is just as intolerant as trying to use the courts to force a gay couple to not practice their beliefs in private. Most people, on either side, do not understand the legal issues involved.
July 13, 2006 at 8:19 PM [# 21]Ray
Sorry I had to cut that short. My curernt job keeps me working quite late, so I only have a few minutes each night to read and respond to what is posted throughout the day. Add to that our time for reading and discussing scriptures and family prayer, and sometimes I can't finish a thread properly. Like now - I have to spend some time with Michelle - Oops, I GET to spend some time with her. (BIG smile!)
July 13, 2006 at 11:08 PM [# 22]Ray
To Clifton:

You asked, "Would BYU fire Mill, Einstein, Plato or possibly even Jesus, because of their radical teachings?"

My only response is that BYU would not have hired Mill - simply because it is a requirment of the institution to hire those who agree to uphold, support and teach its core principles. As much as I love his writings, I wouldn't want Mill teaching at BYU. It might be egotistical of me, but frankly, I believe that there are far too many students who would not be able to see that his anti-religious statements apply equally to those who have given up the pain of the middle and developed "a growing indifference to one or other of these objects (religion / common good)," by focusing exclusively on the search for objective truth. I am sure that many of them would latch onto the brilliant intellectual argument without being able to see the limitations - thus succumbing to the tendency to seek the safety of the extreme.

I think Mill himself might not have realized he was fulfilling his own statement by rejecting religion and choosing the exclusively intellectual - abandoning the painful balancing act for the soothing extreme. One of the reasons I love Mill's writings is because they describe the extreme so well, but, like many brilliant people, I'm not sure he recognized his own proximity to one of those extremes. He might very well have, but I can't remember if I ever read something of his that indicated that recognition.

Next, you said, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness----

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated that we believe that people should be allowed to believe what ever they so desire."

First, Joseph Smith never said that people should be free to DO whatever they desire to do - only that they should be able to BELIEVE whatever they desire to believe.

Second, the pursuit of individual happiness and liberty ALWAYS have been tempered by the moral norms of society and the protection of the general good - and has NEVER meant a guarantee of the actual accomplishment of happiness. Almost every law that ever has been enacted could be interpreted as an infringement on some individual's pursuit of happiness - or a restriction on the right of people to believe whatever they choose - in order to ensure at least a level of common pursuit of happiness. (Think of the disagreement over tax rates and structures, wages and benefits, drug use [including alcohol] and any other method of distributing opportunities for individual happiness in a world in which that outcome is not guaranteed naturally. Think also of instances in which the pursuit of individual happiness violates deep social taboos - like pedophilia.) Even in the description of the city of Enoch, their "perfection" was explained as the result of their willingness to obey a moral code that kept them from needing typical laws to be recorded and enforced. It specifically was their willingness to define their own pursuit of happiness in a uniform manner that created their harmonious outcome. Talk about irony!

In some ways, that would be exhilarating; in other ways, boring. The point is that unfettered pursuit of individual happiness leads either to anarchy or uniformity - to one extreme or the other. I believe that the Book of Mormon statement that their "must needs be opposition in all things" is MUCH more profound than most people realize. "All things" includes our own minds.

Finally, you asked, "Has anyone reading this site ever had the experience of knowing beyond a shadow of doubt something and then later finding out that you were wrong?"

I addressed this in a different way in a posting from the previous thread, but I personally think that such "experiences" are exactly what Tom and Mill addressed when discussing how feelings cannot form a foundation for knowledge. I think there is a common misunderstanding of the difference between belief and knowledge, both inside and outside of the Church. Alma taught explicitly that knowledge comes from experiencing something - seeing the growth of the fruit. Initial faith comes from feelings, but knowledge comes from observational evidence. In the case of blood atonement (which referenced human death - NOT that of Jesus), there is no way to build a personal experience with it and remain alive. Thus, no "knowledge" of the veracity of the doctrine could be attained in this life - only acceptance of and belief in those who taught it. Clifton, I do not mean to trivialize your example at all; I simply think that particular example demonstrates a confusion over what "knowing" really means - a confusion that is prevalent among both life-time members and converts. It takes continual consideration to make the distinction, and most people can't or won't engage in that consideration.
July 13, 2006 at 11:23 PM [# 23]Paul
I can see how one might hope a university could rise above the "sponsorship" mentality, since universities are intended to be intellectual bulwarks. I suppose it may be a reflection of my cynicism that I am not surprised to see a university behaving as would any other business, but I do see your point now.
July 14, 2006 at 5:13 AM [# 24]Clifton
Ray, thanks for the thought provoking response.
Because I am getting forgetful in my old age, I will ask questions in reverse order.
Can I know the church is true or only the acceptance of and belief in those who taught it?
Can I know that there are eternal families or do I have to die to receive verification?
Is there negation of the Holy Ghost with this line of thinking?
Does Moroni 10:4-5 truly mean klnowing or only believing?
July 14, 2006 at 10:16 PM [# 25]Ray
Clifton, It's after midnight, and I am exhausted. I will get to your questions as soon as I can - since I also now work Saturdays.
July 16, 2006 at 10:23 PM [# 26]Ray
I have not had a chance to address Clifton's questions until now, primarily because I live a busy Mormon life - six children, Church calling, Home Teaching that only can be done on Sunday due to my work schedule, etc. I have been thinking about it for almost two full days, and I hope I can do the questions justice within the space constraints of this forum.

I am going to tackle this is a strange way. Please bear with me.

1) There must needs be opposition in all things.

2) The natural man is an enemy to God.

3) (Specifically to "believers"): Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, OR THAT WHICH IS GOOD AND OF GOD TO BE OF THE DEVIL. ... seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge ... see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

There is objective truth and objective error, but we understand very little of those, because none of us are truly objective. One of our central beliefs is that there is a source of objectivity, but our scriptures indicate clearly that we have not reached the point of pure objectivity. We are told that we are given understanding line upon line and precept upon precept, and we also are told that we will only be given what we are able to bear.

Christ himself spoke in parables so that those who could understand, would, and those who couldn't, wouldn't. Apparently, however, almost nobody could, because we are told that he had to explain the parables even to his own disciples.

My point? We need to face opposition in all things, but our natural tendency is to seek the end of opposition. We want answers; we want more than belief; we want knowledge; we don't want to have to distinguish between what is a strong emotional or intellectual conviction and what is experiential knowledge, because we want the certainty of knowledge over mere conviction. We do not gravitate to the middle; rather, we tend toward the extreme in all things.

One example with enormous implications: We teach that Jesus lived a perfect life. We also teach that he commanded us to be perfect. In our tendency to crave calm and lack of opposition, we define Jesus' (and our own) perfection as a lack of weaknesses and mistakes - rather than as the Bible itself defines it, as completion and wholeness. In our focus on ease and removing pain and failure, we turn something (the pursuit of wholeness) that is attainable, uplifting and worthy of pursuit into something (the elimination of mistakes) that is unattainable and causes pain and often debilitating guilt. It is a vicious, self-defeating cycle - all undertaken in the mistaken pursuit of the elimination of opposition.

How does that relate to Clifton's questions? I'll try to tie this together now.

I think that Marx's statement that religion is the opiate of the masses actually has a grain of truth in it. There are MANY who, lacking an ability to avoid the tendency to gravitate to an extreme and struggle in the middle to reach a balance of intelelctual and emotional and spiritual insight, are much better off finding their peace and security in religion than having that personal purpose taken away from them and facing the void that would remain. This will sound much harsher than I mean it be, but it is better for many people to be ignorant humans than to be smart animals.

I believe that we can know whatever we allow ourselves to experience, but I also believe that we should not try to experience all in order to know all. I might be able to know addiction only by experiencing it, but that is knowledge that I choose not to pursue. Again, even in the pursuit of knowledge, there must needs be opposition.

I won't be able to answer the questions in the space left here, so I am going to end this and continue in a new posting.
July 16, 2006 at 11:30 PM [# 27]Ray
As a foundation point, I believe that, although there is objective truth and objective error, there is a legitimate understanding of subjective truth that needs to be addressed. By subjective truth, I mean that each of us is capable of understanding objective truth and error to differing levels - and, whatever one's highest level of potential individual comprehension is, if people reach that level of comprehension they are justified in claiming to know "for themselves". They might not know it "for anyone else," but they know it for themselves. Tom, I think you might take exception to that, but I don't want to make a critical judgment of someone who says they know something if they actually DO know everything they are capable of knowing - especially since that process of reaching the highest level of understanding personally possible is part of how I frame my answers to Clifton's questions.

One by one, here they are - as they relate to the OBJECTIVE truth:

Q1. Can I know the church is true or only the acceptance of and belief in those who taught it?

A1. The "church" is an organization, so I must interpret your question to mean is it possible to know that the organizational structure of the church is approved of and revealed (or at least inspired) by God. Further, can I know that it is the ONLY organizational structure that, in that light, is "true" - that it actually was "restored" under the direction of God, the Father, and Jesus Christ?

I can believe it or disbelieve it with little or no effort on my part - or with great effort on my part. I can only say I know it if I have immersed myself in it enough to see the results of its organizational structure. Does it "bear good fruit"? Does it inspire belief in and service to God? Does it produce the type of qualities that Jesus taught it should produce? Directly to the second question, does it do a better job than other comparable organizations and structures? Even if it appears to be geared toward mental midgets, does it produce a disproportionate number of mental giants - particularly in comparison to other organizations that "should" produce similar results?

I think the Mormon Church passes this test with flying colors. There are plenty of individual exceptions, and it's much harder to distinguish the difference in a place like Utah where the majority of people are members, but I know for a fact that the percentage of Mormon students here in the Fairfield City School District's talented and gifted program is MUCH higher than for any other religious affiliation. I also know for a fact that civic service in this area is much higher among our membership than among any other denomination. When the city of Fairfield needs help with anything from the religious community, they come to us before any other group, because they know that our regular members are more likely to follow through on the help the leaders so easily promise.

From the objective data available to us, I would say that the Mormon Church bears exceptional fruit - that it does, better than any other organization, fulfill the Lord's directives for its membership. Add that intellectual analysis to my own observations of truly miraculous events that have led to individual conversions (some of which I shared earlier with my friend, Paul), and I believe I can say that I have experienced the truthfulness of the church as an organization - that it is an inspired and revealed structure within which to teach the Gospel.

Q2. Can I know that there are eternal families or do I have to die to receive verification?

A2. That depends on whether or not I am capable of seeing into the world of spirits and experiencing it. Personally, from a totally objective perspective, I believe strongly in eternal families. I trust my uncle who was declared dead, returned to life, and told us of his experience - but that is not my own experience.

Q3. Is there negation of the Holy Ghost with this line of thinking?

A3. No, because I believe that it explicitly is the Holy Ghost who makes it possible to reach beyond what would be our natural level of understanding and show us what we need to do in order to experience what will provide us with a true knowldege - and then give us the comfort and strength and vision to go ahead and do what we feel we should do. I have seen too many people who were able to see, feel, understand, know and do things after they were baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost that they never could have done prior to those ordinances to doubt the power and "truthfulness" of the Holy Ghost.

Q4. Does Moroni 10:4-5 truly mean knowing or only believing?

A4. As I said in A3, my experiences have taught me that the difference between one knowing and one believing is directly related to their level of intimacy with the Holy Ghost. Spiritual insight into needed action is critical to knowledge, and the Holy Ghost is the great inspirer of action.
July 16, 2006 at 11:56 PM [# 28]Ray
One last point tonight for Clifton's questions, then a very quick comment for Paul, before I collapse into bed:

Clifton, the D&C teaches clearly that to some is given the gift to know and to others is given the gift to believe on those who know. Another HUGE misconception among many members of the church is that everyone can KNOW the objective truth of all things. Every member can know "for themselves" (at their own highest possible level of objectivity), but our own scriptures clearly teach us that some will always have to base their belief on the knowledge of others. We do a tremendous dis-service to the missionary work of the church if we insist on ALL investigators having an undeniable, knowledge-producing experience prior to their entrance into the waters of baptism - especially since we don't require it of our 8-year-old children before they are baptized.

(If you have seen the new "Preach My Gospel" manual and served a mission yourself, you will understand how the church leadership also recognizes that the missionary work was being allowed to become too robotic and generic - and how they have returned to a more individual approach to investigators' and missionaries' needs. I absolutely LOVE the change.)

Paul, don't let your friend's experience on his mission distort too much your view of missionaries. It is good to know of the exceptions, but the type of missionaries he described truly are the exceptions - and the reason the church tightened the guidelines recently. I personally saw and knew of hundreds of missionaries while I served my own mission (part of the time in the mission home), and I personally have seen and known of hundreds more while serving in a Stake Mission Presidency, a Bihopric, and as a Ward Mission Leader. Of all of those hundreds of missionaries, I have known exactly one who was a disgrace and simply shouldn't have been serving a mission - with perhaps a half-dozen more who were questionable in their dedication and effort. I wish they all could be what we want each of them to be, but I will match those hundreds (even with the exceptions) against any other similar group of young men that age in any other organization in the world without any hesitation. I have taught high school in the Deep South (the Bible Belt), and I have worked in schools throughout the Eastern United States for the past 9 years, and what I have seen with my own eyes contributes greatly to my believe that I KNOW the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in comparison to other churches.
July 17, 2006 at 4:43 AM [# 29]Clifton
Paul, thanks for your testimony.
July 17, 2006 at 6:18 AM [# 30]Clifton
Correction on that last comment. My brain was not working well at 4:45 AM.
Ray, thanks for your testimony
July 17, 2006 at 6:25 AM [# 31]Ron
Paul, the very nature of our society compels all universities to act, in many ways, very much like the business world. Although some faculty look with disdain on the experienced and skillful "business" people involved in running the university, it is often their very expertise (quite obviously,in raising funds, including grants, but also in many other ways) that PERMITS good thinkers--and good teachers--to pursue their "more worthy" pursuits.

As I've hinted at before, my 30+ years in university life (and associating with folks from dozens of other universities on a regular basis, including frequent visits to other universities) has left me absolutely tickled at this profound irony: In virtually every department in virtuually every university, there's at least one very good professor who's very good at identifying weaknesses in other fields--except his own. I'm amused (in a kindly way, not disdainfully) that they can so readily identify how others have been "brainwashed" by their education--or lack of it--and yet they themselves so manifestly were also "brainwashed" by their own grad school mentors and, later, their peers. University life is fascinating.

Paul, as you suggested, Nielsen should have known that he was leaning too far out a 10-story window without protective gear and no safety net below. If he hadn't considered that, he hadn't thought through very well what he proposed to do.
July 17, 2006 at 6:43 AM [# 32]Tom
Ray, your discussion was very enlightening in understanding your beliefs, but you are right-- I have to take exception to your premise of objective and subjective truth. I can accept that we all have varying degrees of understanding, and I accept that some of us are capable of understanding truths that others of us will never understand. I think that about myself sometimes when I read a book or a magazine about some scientific issues which just go right over my head. I think, wow, I don't know that I could ever understand that.

However, my level of understanding something does not add to or subtract from its truthfulness. In fact, I just can't accept that something can be truth from one perspective and falsehood from another. That just makes no sense to me. I am not trying to over-simplify things but from a philosophical standpoint truth and falsehood are binary opposites-- either a 1 or a 0. Now many questions may be quite complex and have varying parts that may be true and others false (like 1011100), etc, but until and unless it is 1111111, it is only a partial truth. Subjectivity has nothing to do with whether a statement is a 1 or a 0.

Moving back to the discussion of J.S. Mill, I think you correctly restated his premise concerning the tendency to find severe emotional conflict in wrestling with the varying truths and falsehoods found in religious thought. He stated: "It is a most painful position to a conscientious and cultivated mind, to be drawn in contrary directions by the two noblest of all objects of pursuit, truth, and the general good." And I generally agree with your statement that "There are MANY who, lacking an ability to avoid the tendency to gravitate to an extreme and struggle in the middle to reach a balance of intelelctual and emotional and spiritual insight, are much better off finding their peace and security in religion than having that personal purpose taken away from them and facing the void that would remain."

Eventhough we are in agreement that most people are better off finding that happy medium, that natural tendency and preference does not constitute a a resolution of truth, nor does it mean that a particular religious thought is based on truth. It only confirms that it is human nature to resolve mental conflict and easier to live in a state of ignorant equilibrium than to suffer through the ostracization of believing differently than most others in one's peer group. Again, truth and falsehood play a very small role-- but mental and emotional equilibrium play a huge role.
July 17, 2006 at 6:59 AM [# 33]Ron
One interesting question (at least to me) about Mills hasn't been raised in this thread yet.

First, a little background: Given the "Christian" religions of his acquaintanceship, I'm not surprised that Mills wasn't much impressed. I've observed the same thing as I've lived abroad several times in several different areas of the world. The emphasis on seeking position, power and wealth reveals lives of leaders who seem very much to be "whited sepulchres." One could easily become cynical in observing such, repeated almost universally.

It all reflects so much of "unrighteous dominion" (D&C 121:41-46).

I wouldn't say that, in contrast, LDS leaders are perfect, for they're not. The difference is basically in the attitude. Partially because most religious leaders are paid, it's easy (natural) for the emphasis to become one of improving (or at least maintinaing) that livelihood. Most LDS leaders strive to improve their own lives. Many non-LDS religious alsoso strive, but the environment and doctrine don't particularly encourage that.

So, the question:

What does Mills think TODAY?

That is, once Mills had a chance to receive the gospel as the Lord taught it, what would his thinking have been? What is it now?

Of course, we mortals don't have access (yet) to the answer to that question.

The point is that his response to apostate Christianity (and religion in general) was disappointment. That's not at all surprising. Most if not all of us (reading this thread) would respond similarly in similar circumstances.

Therefore, although his writings stimulate earnest thought, we should not suppose that he found ultimate truth. His reasoning brought him to some truths, some very useful and profound insights--which cause me to believe (but NOT to "know") that he has accepted the gospel.

What I'd be interested in reading is the book Mills would write today, knowing what he now knows.
July 17, 2006 at 10:40 AM [# 34]Paul
I haven't read the essays on religion that Tom and Ray were discussing, but I would venture that the ideas central to "On Liberty" wouldn't change much were Mill to write them with an eternal perspective.

Truth is strengthened by colliding with error, as is our belief in truth upon resolving the conflicts within our minds. Though it may not be valuable to those now deceased who hopefully have a complete understanding of truth by now, the value of conflict in our own search for truth is not something an omniscient being would recommend we avoid.

(But, knowing what he now knows, if Mill were to re-write his essay I have to assume he would employ fewer commas.) :)
July 19, 2006 at 12:43 AM [# 35]Marina
"It seems to me not only possible but probable, that in a higher, and, above all, a happier condition of human life, not annihilation but immortality may be the burdensome idea; and that human nature, though pleased with the present, and by no means impatient to quit it, would find comfort and not sadness in the thought that it is not chained through eternity to a conscious existence which it cannot be assured that it will always wish to preserve."

http://olldownload.libertyfund.org/Texts/MillJS0172/Works/Vol10/PDFs/0223.10_Pt05_Religion.pdf

Under the assumption that the LDS version of eternal life is correct, as well as the LDS veiwpoint that we retain essentially the personality that we have on this earth in the next life, I would venture a guess that Mill was DEEPLY disappointed to discover an eternity of existence lying ahead of him upon his death!
July 19, 2006 at 4:51 AM [# 36]Ron
Ah, but Marina, the quote you cite represents Mill's view from a mortal perspective with no understanding of gospel principles as the Lord taught (and teaches) them. From that perspective, it's not difficult to be pessimistic about many things.

But I believe that when Mill encountered (or encounters, if the tense concerns you) the gospel in the Spirit World, he did (or will) embrace it with all his heart. For he strikes me as an honest, ethical person; when such people encounter eternal principles without Satan's deceptions, they embrace those principles, which are the gospel.

My point is that he (and other thoughtful, honest people) have left us useful insights; but when he (and others) encounter the gospel, he (they) would then happily change some of what they previously said. We can profit from his comments aligned with eternal truth--which is best discerned in this mortal sphere through the influence of the Spirit.
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"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."
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If you came looking for a way to reach me, you can email me at blog-at-malan-dot-org.
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