Another Man's Treasure
NOV
09
2006

The utility of deity

12:35 AM 34 comments

I’ve had a strange recurring mental image lately.  It’s not as simple as a picture, but also not a full dream-quality production.  You could think of it as a local community play in one scene, shown exclusively in my troubled little head.

It opens in an upscale restaurant, not so nice that there aren’t prices on the menu but nice enough that you might feel out of place wearing blue jeans.  The patrons, all dressed conservatively in muted dresses and jackets, seem to be enjoying intimate conversations at every table.  

There is but one exception, an aging woman wearing a shockingly bright pink blouse, whose husband speaks but little and listens intently to her every word.  She’s telling an animated story, a little too loudly and with her mouth full of salad, when she begins choking.  Her husband leaps from his chair, sending it tumbling behind, and yells, “Is there a doctor in the house?”

A distinguished white-haired gentleman turns from a neighboring table, and for the first time we see his face.  It is my professor.  He wears the face of a Jeopardy contestant confidently waiting for Alex Trebek to confirm his Final Jeopardy answer—a smug expression that seems to say, “I’m so glad you asked.”  

“I’m a doctor,” he says with feigned humility, and the panicked man gestures quickly toward his choking wife.  “Oh, not that kind of doctor,” my professor continues with a warm chuckle.  “No, I’m an academic doctor.  My dissertation explored the connection between third-world countries and the television remote control.  Did you know that a great many African families still have to walk across the room to change channels?  I was actually a student of the world’s leading remote control theorist at Stanford before he got famous…”

The scene ends without resolution, my professor rambling on without noticing that the husband has run to seek help elsewhere, but if you need a tidy ending let’s just agree that the woman was saved by her waiter and left a generous tip. 

This little daydream came to me first while listening to a framed in-class discussion led by my professor.  He asked whether society would be able to function without mass media, and though in semesters past I would have enjoyed the subsequent theoretical ramblings I just can’t seem to feign interest this time around.

As my classmates offered opinions and speculations about what society would be like without mass media I quickly lost interest and wanted to end the discussion by offering the concrete answer: If mass media didn’t exist, we would invent it. 

A few days later I wrote the post about making friends with Merritt and Joani, and Merritt emailed me a reply addressing the idea that many life-changing events seem largely due to coincidence:

“The book we purchase because of the cool dust jacket could end up being the cause of a life transformation that leads to fortune, or it could convince us to secede from society and live in a yurt for the remainder of our days.  The fact that things have turned out so good for (some of us) almost makes faith in God a worthwhile pursuit.”

His final sentence intrigues me, and I hope he’ll forgive my taking it out of context. 

I’ve noticed a recent atheistic uprising of sorts.  Richard Dawkins and the like are making the rounds on national best-seller lists, and atheists everywhere seem to be suddenly unified.  The increased exposure has given rise to many circular discussions—the kind where atheists and religionists wage intellectual battle despite the fact that there is no proof of either position and no possibility for progress.  Just as I had no stomach for theoretical musings in class, these theistic discussions have been unusually tiring as well.

But intellectual laziness can generate its own rewards, and my lackadaisical response to each of these debates sparked a useful thought:  If mass media didn’t exist we would invent it because it serves vital functions in society.  For the same reason, if God didn’t exist we would invent him. 

We need the benefits afforded by a belief in God—to know that an unseen hand watches over us, presenting the coincidences that seem to redefine our lives every now and again and promising rewards in another life when this one seems unfair.   We need a way to explain the inexplicable, and though the nature of what we can explain without God is rapidly changing, there is still much in life that only a belief in God can account for. 

If atheists were able to succeed in convincing us to abandon belief in God, it would be mere minutes before someone, somewhere had an experience that defied explanation and stirred a belief in some greater power.  Even if God were vanquished, he would immediately return to exist in the hearts of his children.  Though atheists may object, God is simply too useful to be abandoned. 

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Your Comments

November 09, 2006 at 10:29 AM [# 1]Clifton
I don't think that Richard Dawkins would object.
There is an interesting interview in Time, November 13,2006 issue that features a debate between Dawkins and Francis Collins, the delusional god Dawkins and the confirmed Christian Collins. Both men are respected scientists in their field and they cover a lot of the recent discussion concerning religion vs science.
In the last paragraph by Dawkins, he makes the following statement concerning the existence of God - "But it does seem to me to be a worthy idea. Refutable - but neverless grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur. They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed."
It appears to me that he is not rejecting deity with this statement, he is rejecting myth.
Is it possible to have honest inquiry about the nature of God without undermining testimony or causing rancor from believers?
November 09, 2006 at 11:30 AM [# 2]Paul
You (and Dawkins) have struck something that has always bothered me. I hate when people use flaws and contradictions in religious teachings (the Catholic view of the Trinity, for example) to "prove" that God doesn't exist. Such contradictions don't mean God isn't there, it merely means that man's religions have failed to fully understand him.

The presumption that we ought to be able to understand everything God understands is ridiculous, and Dawkins' statement you quoted is the most sensible view I've heard from an atheist thus far.

I had already bookmarked the Time article to read when I have time; I may make some time soon...
November 09, 2006 at 11:32 AM [# 3]Ray
I read that interview, as well as another similar but more extensive piece in a recent Newsweek (sorry, can't remember the date and am too lazy to look it up). I find such discussion envigorating specifically because neither of these men ridiculed, belittled or condemned the other's persepctive. As I said in another thread, I think that is what separates constructive debate and the type of "I can shout louder than you" commentary that has spread across our nation in the last thirty years. I also think it lies at the heart of my answer to Clifton's question - namely, "Yes, IF both the inquirer and the inquiree(s) avoid rancor and condemnation."

I thought it was extremely interesting that Elder Bednar spoke last month explicitly about offense - and put the responsibility for offense NOT on the "offender" but rather on the "offendee". That adds a different twist to Clifton's question than might seem likely - that often open and honest inquiry about the nature of God cannot happen specifically because believers take immediate offense at that honest inquiry. (I could address the issue in terms of whether the foundation for "testimony" is spiritual or emotional, but that will have to wait, perhaps, for a different discussion.)

As a final note, in typing this response I have examined my reaction to the closed thread from days of yore, and I can say honestly that I did not request it be closed due to offense - but rather due simply to intractability on each end. However, it hit me as I typed today that I might have given the appearance of offense - of "How dare you question my beliefs . . ." I hope that was not the case, but if it was, I apologize.
November 09, 2006 at 11:57 AM [# 4]Ray
As an aside, to continue the idea of honest inquiry, I have told people (when I felt it appropriate) that if I wasn't Mormon, I probably would be Buddhist. How difficult do you think it is to have that conversation with the typical Christian believer - or even many fellow Mormons?
November 10, 2006 at 8:14 PM [# 5]Anime Merritt
Regarding Ray's last comment, it's absolutely stunning how often I've heard that said. I readily admit that if I hadn't been raised Mormon, there wouldn't be a chance of me converting. As it is, I have frequently felt disillusioned by the church. Ironically, I have also frequently felt that my doubt is caused by my own faithlessness - by my own wrong.

So now I look at my situation and compare it to the other 6 billion people in the world and the countless others who have come and gone. I've had a lot pushing me in the right direction and I find it extremely difficult, at times, to buy into (aside from external forces, I have also put a great deal of time and energy into my own faith). How could God possibly expect his children to find and accept the only church with the power to save and exalt?

It wouldn't take a whole lot for investigators to realize that, A, LDS aren't really that much more virtuous than people of other faiths, and B, a lot of things in our church just don't add up.

Take, for instance, the masses of prophecies from early church leaders that never reached fulfillment (I refer to the dated ones). Consider the restrictions on the priesthood up until the change in the late 70's, a decade after the civil rights movement. Search out plural marriage in the manuals of the church, then ask an LDS woman how she feels about it. Explain why spiritual manifestations are a found in almost every religious sect, and then tell me how ours are different.

I hope this doesn't sound like apostacy. I don't think you'll ever find me leaving the church. But being a sincere and well-intentioned LDS doesn't necessarily put me on steady grounds to defend my belief. In the end, it still comes down the subjective statement, "it just feels right." Now, I may have been conditioned to feel out right and wrong, but I can't escape the feeling regardless.
November 10, 2006 at 8:46 PM [# 6]Ray
I think a fascinating discussion would be the necessity of an organizational restoration and not just a restoration of the original truths revealed by the prophets and the Messiah. Based on its rejection of the Catholic Church and its claim to authority, the entire Protestant world is based on the idea that organizational structure is not critical - that authority is based in the Word of God, not bestowed on mankind - that belief alone (which many qualify as a moivating belief), independent of ceremonial symbolism is all that counts - etc.

In a nutshell, if the Plan of Salvation allows for the possibility of exaltation for ALL of Heavenly Father's children, regardless of their organizational allegiance (which is one of the foundation principles of Mormonism and a HUGE distinction between it and Protestantism), then why do we bother trying to convert the masses? Why don't we simply teach them to live whatever they believe as well as they can do so? To delve a little further, why does it matter what we do in this life - if we are judged not by a check list of our actions but rather by the character we develop - by how hard we try to be the best we can be? What's the critical purpose of the Church?

I said this in an earlier posting, but my perspective on these questions is the main reason why I will never leave the Mormon Church - and why I am frustrated by those who "kick against the pricks" and waste so much energy attacking it and/or getting others to leave it (or any other organization that doesn't practice true brainwashing and re-orientation). It's just so pointless in the eternal scheme of things. I believe that the answers to these types of questions also are some of the least understood aspects of the restored Gospel - particularly among those who do not attend the temple frequently.
November 11, 2006 at 3:52 PM [# 7]Clifton
Or original truths restorable?
Or original truths verifiable?
November 11, 2006 at 6:43 PM [# 8]Ray
"or" or "are"? I think you meant "are".

I recognize that the way I worded my questions assumed a positive response to Clifton's, but the questions still are valid even with a negative response to those questions. In fact, ironically, they might be more valid.

To rephrase with that in mind, "Is a particular organizational structure critical to a divinely directed restoration, whether or not it is accompanied by a restoration of all original truth? Do we need a Prophet and a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles regardless of church size? Do we need stakes and wards and branches and missions and multiple Quorums of the Seventy now? Etc., etc., etc."
November 11, 2006 at 9:35 PM [# 9]Paul
I'm trying to organize this for myself. Humor me...

Merritt (and countless others) is sure he wouldn't believe Mormonism if he hadn't been born/raised in it. I have heard the same sentiment many times, frequently in a voice that sounds suspiciously like my own.

Ray says that since all of us can be saved after we die, it wouldn't matter if I had been born Catholic (and thus eventually rejected the LDS gospel). It's ironic that such a belief relies on Mormonism being true--so as long as Mormons are right, it doesn't matter if Mormons are right...

Clifton, your asked if doubting man's definition of God can be done without damaging testimony or making others mad. I work on the assumption that a believer gets bent out of shape when exposed to the doubts and honest inquiries of others only if the believer himself hasn't already taken a hard look. And if he hasn't taken a hard look, he really doesn't know what he believes.
November 11, 2006 at 9:43 PM [# 10]Marina
I have a few unrelated (to each other) comments:

1) Talk about coincidences: just hours before I read your post, I had just learned what a yurt was in the novel I was reading. How weird is that, that a word I had never heard before came up twice on the same day? Not life changing, but nevertheless, quite coincidental.

2)Paul, if the last paragraph in your post were to hold true, wouldn't that basically prove the Atheists' point? That God is an invention of man?

3)Ray, unless I misunderstand, you are saying that neither the Mormon church nor any other organization is actually necessary for exaltation. I might should wait for verification that that is indeed what you meant, but if so, I would like to hear your answer to your own question: "why do we bother trying to convert the masses?" If your perspective of the restored gospel is correct, why does the church focus one third of its attention on Proclaiming the Gospel?
November 11, 2006 at 10:46 PM [# 11]Paul
Marina:

1) Merritt teaches me lots of new words. Most don't rhyme with yurt. (English majors... always using multisyllabic words. Like... yurt. Bad example.)

2) Yep! That's what is so intriguing about it the idea.

November 12, 2006 at 4:31 AM [# 12]Clifton
Heck, you are correct Ray. I didn't catch that until I had pushed post and then didn't know how to correct it. Well, I have never answered to the title wordsmith.
I am still have problems with phrases like "all original truth". It seems to me like trying to restore the idea of truth by asking a possum if he likes sweet potatoes.
Is there such a creature as all original truth?
November 12, 2006 at 10:38 AM [# 13]Ray
Marina,

I only have a couple of minutes, but I didn't SAY that no organization is necessary to salvation or exaltation. I asked the question WHY an organizational structrue is necessary IF organizational allegiance in this life is NOT necessary - as we teach. I have my answer, which includes the belief that organization IS necessary, but I wanted to see how others would react - and, frankly, how many even had considered that point.

Paul said, "so as long as Mormons are right, it doesn't matter if Mormons are right..." That's the closest I've heard anyone come to approaching what I have come to believe - and, therefore, why I believe in the restoration of the Gospel, Priesthood and Church, even with all of the "warts" we can discuss.

Gotta run.
November 12, 2006 at 12:54 PM [# 14]Ray
I want to go back to a foundation discussion for a bit. Look again at what Paul said about organizational allegiance not being necessary in this life for reward in the next life: "so as long as Mormons are right, it doesn't matter if Mormons are right..." Let's look at this from a different angle for a minute.

What if we assume that Mormons are NOT right - that organizational allegiance in this life IS necessary? What are the implications of that assumption, as it relates directly to the discussion of the afterlife - both for individuals and, as importantly, to entire populations? (staying strictly within "mainstream" Christian theology for the moment -- the "creeds" at the time of Joseph Smith)
November 12, 2006 at 1:06 PM [# 15]Ray
Oops; I forgot to add my note to Clifton. Here it is:

I didn't say "all original truth"; I said "the original truths revealed by the prophets and the Messiah". I meant specifically those things that had gotten twisted with the passage of time, as things are wont to do. If there is no "corruption" of doctrine, then there is no need for a restoration. That's all I meant. (I agree completely that a "restoration of all things" does not have to include an understanding of all truth. In fact, our doctrine teaches that we don't understand all things.)

Sorry for the confusion; I don't want it to get in the way of the other discussion.
November 12, 2006 at 4:25 PM [# 16]Paul
But Ray I don't know how many general authorities, or even bishops, would be comfortable with the characterization you're making.

It is widely taught that if a person hears and rejects the gospel in this life, he is sunk in the next. That certainly leans toward organizational allegiance. I tend toward your interpretation myself, but I don't believe you'd find much support for it in the missionary department on Temple Square.
November 12, 2006 at 4:56 PM [# 17]Ray
This first comment is NOT directed at Paul. As I said, Paul put it into words very well when he said "so as long as Mormons are right, it doesn't matter if Mormons are right..." This comment is a general request to everyone.

This is a pretty deep discussion. PELASE, try hard not to read more into what I am writing than actually is there. Don't assume I am saying something that isn't in my actual written words.

Paul, I never said that you can hear, understand through the Spirit and reject in this life with no consequence in the next - which is what the doctrine says. (not just hear and reject, but hear, understand through the Spirit and reject) If a missionary or member completely botches an explanation, or if they give a perfect explanation without the influence of the Spirit, the hearer is not condemned for not accepting what they hear. That is core doctrine and why we don't mark people's doors when they don't listen and/or accept the missionaries.

What I said, in short, is that belonging to the Church doesn't qualify one automatically for exaltation - and belonging to another church or non-Christian religion doesn't remove one automatically from the possibility of exaltation. Every General Authority would agree with that, and it has been taught in various words MANY times from our pulpits (going back to the early years of the restoration), but you will NEVER hear that taught from a Protestant pulpit.

As to the missionary department, it shouldn't get within ten miles of this discussion. We are dealing with a subject that is WAY beyond initial investigation, and I would not address it in the general public. I only brought it up here because of the spiritual and intellectual maturity of your readership.

Everyone, please remember that I have said more than once in this particular thread that I believe in the need for an organizational restoration - every bit as much as a doctrinal restoration, and possibly more. What I am addressing is the WHY - when the simple response, based on our teachings, would seem to be that it doesn't matter.

Let me say it differently: If one can be exalted no matter what religion or denomination they believe and practice in this life, what is the need for a restored church organization? A related question: Which is more important, inspired doctrine or inspired organization - or are they both equally important?
November 12, 2006 at 5:06 PM [# 18]Ron
I find Anime's post to be fascinating. For instance, I've frequently and carefully considered the question of spiritual experiences in all religions ever since my first mission, to France--with all the "miracles of Lourdes" and other places.

The answer is a piece of the puzzle tackled in the rest of the discussion, i.e., Is it important to belong to the Lord's Church? And, of course, the notion that on many comparisons, LDS don't fare appreciably better than others.

The key point is that the Father and the Savior give each of us a full, honest opportunity to hear and accept the truth, or to reject it. He won't force any of us to choose His way. So He also won't force any of us to live as we should live, nor to share the gospel as we should share it. And that leaves many people unable to find the truth, even those who search for it.

I long ago realized that miracles and other spiritual experiences happen outside the realm of the priesthood from the same basic, correct principle that nurtures them within that priesthood: the faith of the individual. Fervent believers in any religion are blessed as they turn to God, however they address him or conceive of him. That doesn't mean they don't get sick and bad things don't happen. Those things are part of life and we're to learn from them.

But we don't get multiple opportunities to make that basic choice. Those of us within the gospel framework chose that environment and accepted a "calling" to have it here--and to do something about that.

Joseph Smith himself said that if his experiences hadn't happened to him, he wouldn't have believed them, either. "The world" often gets in the way of people recognizing the truth, whether that "world" is the imperfect lives of LDS or their own choices within their environment.

The fundamental difference, then, is the covenants. The fact is that each of us responding to this blog topic has the opportunity of responding to the gospel in this life. We have the opportunity--and responsiblility--to help others within the church to progress as consistently as possible, and to share our light with those who haven't understood it yet.

None of us, being mortal, can adequately determine when any other given individual has had an adequate opportunity to understand and accept or reject the opportunity. For instance, Lehi's "death-bed" comments to his grandchildren suggest that he felt they had not had an adequate opportunity--despite his own attempts to teach them. Their parents, the intervening generation, would naturally have had more influence on them.

So the essence of the matter isn't to expound on who's had a chance and blew it, but rather to decide that, enormous as the task is, we can do something to help move the effort along. We can serve well as called; we can reach out in honest and sincere efforts to help those around us; we can be sure that our lives make it more likely for people to find the truth than to obscure it for them.

President Wilford Woodruff said that almost all of the ancestors we can identify will accept the gospel in the spirit world. Since everyone who's ever lived in this world accepted at least enough of the gospel in our pre-earth life to choose the Father's plan--and the Savior--over the proposed alternative, I suppose President Woodruff's comment--intended to stimulate the Saints to greater diligence in seeking ancestors--applies to the rest of the world as well as our own ancestors. I've had enough expriences in the temple and in genealogical research to verify his statement.

Missionary work in the spirit world is simpler than here, if for no other reason than the lack of distractions--they don't need to concern themselves with making a living, etc., etc. But that wouldn't justify an attitude of "let 'em all kill each other off, then, and get 'em taught in the spirit world." The Lord needs a working base here, too.

And our imperfections as members shouldn't suprise us. The Book of Mormon indicates how we ("the Gentiles") will, in general, respond to the gospel. As we slacken off, the "remnant of Joseph" will arise and complete what we choose not to finish.

November 12, 2006 at 5:10 PM [# 19]Ray
I wouldn't have this conversation in Gospel Doctrine class or Seminary - or address it in a sacrament talk - or in another forum open to easy misunderstanding or glazed-eye-syndrome. Frankly, I think if everyone really understood this concept (including myself better than I do), there would be relatively few people who would reject it and not join the church. I just think, especially in the reality of the world in which we live that is influenced SO heavily by the effects of the natural man and apostacy, that there are relatively few who are able to discuss it objectively and understand it - much like the discussion we had about teaching John Stuart Mill's writings at BYU. That's why I would not try to have this discussion in a setting different than this one, even though I believe it is one of the most important discussions I could have with someone.
November 13, 2006 at 12:30 AM [# 20]Tom
My problem with the notion/necessity of a restored organization goes back to Merritt's original comment. According to the US Census Bureau, there are roughly 6.6 billion people in the world today. There are roughly 12 million Latter-Day Saints, of which, at best estimates, 5 million are actually active, tithe-paying, practicing members. That means that the organization of the Church, which some claim is so vital and necessary, is specifically applicable to only 0.075% of the earth's population, "as currently constituted."

While the political and philosophical notion of the equality of man far post-dates the writing of the bible, there is no doubt that under various uses and translations, Mormons believe that God is "no respecter of persons"-- that the gospel is or will be available to all God's children, "either in this life or the life to come". Yet it seems wholly inconsistent that the importance of God restoring "his organization" of the church is both lost and irrelevant (in their perspective) to 99.925% of the world.

One must then question the rationale that is used when 0.075% of the world think they are the chosen, blessed few sent to help redeem the rest of the world, and that their organization is the "perfect" or "most perfect" organization on earth.

Is it really possible to believe in an all-loving, just god, and still believe that 99.925% of the world were less noble in the pre-existence, or less fortunate (or worse, less worthy/righteous) in this life? . . .or whatever other excuse is used to justify why there are not more members of the "one true church." The logic of that conclusion absolutely fails me.

Questioning that elitist notion does not mean that there is no good in the LDS church. Nor does it mean that atheism is the only other alternative. Both are equally irrational conclusions. What it does, is call in to question the logic and correlative justification of believing in a just God and still believing in being elect. Logically, the two are incompatible, inconsistent conclusions. "God is a just god and no respecter of persons" is not compatible with "I am in the elite 0.075% of the world with access to God's true doctrine and organization."

I think this goes back to Paul's comments about being a "pancake snob". To him, Wendy's pancakes just taste better. So he is happy. Anything less is just not satisfying. However, some people don't like pancakes at all and will find their happiness in someting entirely different. In Paul's perspective, Wendy's pancakes are the one true pancake recipe in the world-- but admittedly he has not tried every pancake recipe in the world-- but he doesn't need to. He has what makes him happy. Life, death, happiness and sadness will continue in the world whether or not anyone else ever tastes her pancakes. Indeed, ". . .men are that they might have joy." Likewise, a "restored organization" is not necessary to fulfil mankind's purpose on earth-- joy can be found without it, and men can find joy in many different forms.
November 13, 2006 at 11:47 AM [# 21]Ray
But only, as Paul said, if Mormons are right. Ironic, isn't it?

Hasn't anyone else noticed the interesting combination of a very conservative code for this life and the most liberal construction of the judgment in all of Christianity? We almost literally have the liberal application of Buddhism taught by an organization that is seen by many as right of the Southern Baptists. I'm asking why that is - and nobody yet, except Paul, even has begun an attempt to address it.

Let me be even clearer: I would agree with Tom's statistical analysis IF, and only IF, the Church taught that the reward for the 0.075% of the population who embrace the restored Gospel in this life is greater than the reward for all of those who don't. (In other words, I would accept it if I belonged to any other Chirstian denomination in existence today - or if I simply didn't understand what the Church actually teaches.) All discussions of the psychological need for elitist motivation aside, that is NOT what the doctrines actually teach. Therefore, I cannot accept your conclusion, Tom.

Paul hinted at this in one of his responses, but don't fall back on what many members believe, or even what can be extrapolated incorrectly from discussions of "the elect". When we are told that we were "saved to come forth in the last days", or that "we are among the noble and great ones", or any of the other configurations of that statement, DOCTRINALLY it has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on the reward we will receive IN COMPARISON TO others who died without the opoortunity.

Frankly, Tom, all you said in the last posting was, in essence, "I can't understand it, so it must be wrong." Your actual words were, "The logic of that conclusion absolutely fails me." The problem is that the conclusion you reference as illogical DID NOT come from me. Many others make that incorrect conclusion, but I have not stated it anywhere in what I wrote. I cannot refute what others believe when I don't believe it myself, so, again, please stick to what I actually say.

So let me ask again, is there anyone who can give me any reason why an organizational restoration might be necessary - assuming there really is a God who cares about and loves His children? I believe strongly that there is.
November 13, 2006 at 1:36 PM [# 22]Clifton
My understanding of Section 76 of the Doctrine & Covenants is that there are major differences in the degrees of salvation. I agree that Mormons teach that few souls will end up in outer darkness, but surely only those that are sealed in the temple have access to the highest levels of the celestial kingdom.
I am not sure the idea of celestial exaltation for the chosen is ecumenical.
Ray if I were a Baptist and understood the Mormon doctrine of who goes where, I would consider you a bigot for suggesting this is liberal Christianity.
November 13, 2006 at 7:00 PM [# 23]Ray
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your posting at all, Clifton -- and I usually at least understand what you are trying to say. Our official doctrine teaches that, by the time of the final judgment when final destinations are irrevocably decreed, all necessary sealing work will be done for all of God's children who have ever lived -- thereby providing an equal opportunity for each level of salvation/exaltation to each and every one of those children. How, when the opportunity for exaltation is open to all regardless of denomination or religion in this life, and simple baptism and membership in a particular religious denomination is no guarantee of exaltation, can it be viewed as anything but liberal? I understand that those who believe Baptist theology would not accept it, but how in the world can it be considered bigoted?

"Only those who are sealed in the temple" is available to so many more people in Mormon theology than salvation is in Baptist theology that it's not worth comparing. (OK; I'll try. How do you compare the a beach to a sandbox?) The Baptist view fits Tom's 0.075% math MUCH better than the Mormon view. I understand that the rest of the Christian world thinks we have a limited, "only Mormons can be saved" theology, but our view is MUCH more liberal than their "only Christians in this life can be saved" version - both in construct AND in actual numbers.
November 13, 2006 at 7:28 PM [# 24]Ray
Let me try this positioning. Which of the following is a more liberal definition of salvation or exaltation, whichever term denotes the highest reward possible? 1) Only those who accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ at some point prior to the final judgment and have lived the best life they were capable of living, or 2) Only those who accept Jesus during their mortal existence as their personal Lord and Savior.

Also, I still want to see what everyone thinks of my original and repeated question about the necessity of an organizational restoration. Tom wrote in favor of no need; can anyone else see any need?
November 14, 2006 at 5:41 AM [# 25]Clifton
I agree that I often can't express my thoughts very effectively, so let me quote several verses from the D&C which disturb our Baptist friends.

D&C 76:71-77
And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
Behold, these are they who died without law.
And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison , whom the Son visited , and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

I assume when speaking of the church of the Firstborn we are speaking of the LDS Church. This assumption means,to me, that if you don't join the Mormon church, you will not be with the Father in heaven. To a Baptist that puts us in the category of a bigot.
This world that Brother Joseph sees is after the judgment. Again it appers to me that verse 75 puts most of these good people at a level of exaltation that does not include the presence of Heavenly Father. This is not heaven to a Baptist.
I don't have a statistical figure, but I guess most Christians will not make it to the celestial kingdom.
Baptist doctrine has been reconstructed in the last few years to reconsider the fate of heathens. Now it is thought that God will make allowances for those that never have the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and his gospel.
Does this make my thought less opaque?
November 14, 2006 at 6:29 AM [# 26]Paul
Ray,

I guess I don't understand your question in this context.

We seem to agree on the quirky point that as long as Mormons are right, it doesn't matter if Mormons are right. Right? In that light, one has to wonder if it matters whether the organization of the Church on earth is really requisite.

Is it the idea that matters--that everyone regardless of faith will have a chance at exaltation after death? Or is it our knowledge of the idea that matters--that there is prophet on earth today that can tell us that everyone regardless of faith will have a chance at exaltation after death?

If that is the essence of your question, then I will say my inclination is the former. Even if the Church weren't on the earth, the idea would still be true. Thus we could be exalted without the church organization.
November 14, 2006 at 7:25 AM [# 27]Ray
I hate being rushed, but it can't be helped, so I will tackle only one aspect for now.

Paul and Clifton are getting to the heart of the matter. As Paul said, in a purely theoretical perspective, "even if the Church weren't on the earth, the idea would still be true. Thus we could be exalted without the church organization." Again, that is true in theory. However, in reality, there is a deep need within humans to congregate and socialize and fellowship and lead and follow and organize. We are not isolationist by nature; we are congregationalist.

Clifton hits at it in a different way with Section 76. He nailed one of the key issues that we discussed at length in the thread about polygamy. I'll get to it in more detail when I have more time, since it really is the crux of the matter; for now I'll just brush it a bit.

The initial leap of faith in this discussion is the acceptance of the existence of a God who actually cares about our joy - not only in the afterlife, but also in this life here on earth. It also rests on the acceptance of a God who is willing to instruct and inspire but not force - to want us to have joy but allow us to have misery - etc. It requires a God who is willing to wait for the evolution of human understanding - and to mess around occasionally in the Petrie dish when that is necessary. More importantly, it requires avoidance of the strong human tendency to think that the best understanding of the past must be the best understanding of the present and the future. In that vein, it also falls apart if one does not accept that God works outside of a restored organization, both on an individual AND organizational level, even through organizations with which he is not "well pleased" - or allow him to become "more pleased" as these organizations begin to model the restored organization. Clifton hit that point directly on the head in his last posting about how Baptists are rethinking their centuries-old view of salvation - and Tom mentioned it earlier in a discussion about Catholicism.

Gotta stop for now, even though I'm not sure I have been clear at all at this point.
November 14, 2006 at 3:38 PM [# 28]Lisa
Well, I think most of the protestant world would be happy in the terrestial world because they want to be with Jesus and that is exactly who rules over the terrestial kingdom. They don't really pray to God the father, but to the Lord Jesus. I just had to interject this into the discussion. But if you have heard or listened to non-mormons pray, you will know I am right. They even close in "thy name we pray".
November 14, 2006 at 7:24 PM [# 29]Ray
Again, no time right now, but . . .

I haven't even gotten to that point yet, but it is another aspect I wanted to address eventually. It is ironic that we are called a cult and non-Christian when our theology teaches that the absolute worst that a "decent Christian" will attain is the absolute best that they aspire to attain. Conversely, if "they" are right and "we" are wrong, then we will attain what they strive to attain, since we definitely accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. Again, if the Mormons are correct, then there is no detriment to any other Christian believer. They get, at worst, exactly what they want - an eternity of giving praise to the God who saved them but never growing themselves. (Think about that one from a "big picture" perspective.)

I'll get back to the need for an organizational restoration later, but this concept is a big part of that need.
November 15, 2006 at 6:11 AM [# 30]Tom
I find it odd that this is now a binary choice between either Mormons are right or some other protestant religion is right. What if you are both wrong? What if you are wrong but are so convinced you are right you stop thinking rationally and stop looking for the truth. That seems to be the greater danger, and perhaps goes back to Paul's much earlier posting about Pascal's wager. While I do not accept the wager Pascal reportedly concluded, I do believe that close-mindedness and a lack of objectivity is far more dangerous than an open mind and a life-long desire to sincerely analyze, evaluate, reason and repeat. I am not calling anyone here close-minded. I think most who respond on this blog are much more analytical about their religion than most religionists I know, but I think it is a common tendency in all religions to turn off the evaluation switch and merely reason that one is either right or wrong and therefore must conclude that they are right and others are wrong. It is far more likely that each of us is wrong about many things we are convinced is right and our neighbors are right about more things we give them credit for.
November 15, 2006 at 6:37 AM [# 31]Ray
Tom, ironically, that is one of the main points I am trying to reach. I know it branched off into a quick discussion of the theology of the terrestrial kingdom, but one of my major convictions is that in our claim of the restoration (which I accept) we too often label the alternatives as "wrong" - when, in fact, they merely are incomplete or not fully evolved. Our own understanding, even given the restoration, is the same - perhaps more complete, but certainly not complete and fully evolved. (As I've said earlier, I am fascinated by Moroni 7, especially the first half. Those warnings to not judge that which is good to be of the devil are directed at believers.)

Again, I don't have time this morning for more, but I repeat that I think it ironic that it is the Mormon theology that evolves within an organization led by modern revelation that allows for that perception -- and that other Christian denominations, as Clifton mentioned, now are beginning to espouse a similar point of view. Much of what was espoused at the beginning of the restoration is no longer espoused now that we are somewhere in the middle of the restoration, and I am sure much of what we espouse now will not be espoused somewhere in the future when we are closer to the end of the restoration. I view the restoration of all things as a process not an event, and that process can only happen fully in an organizational structure that is built explicitly to accommodate it.
November 15, 2006 at 7:01 PM [# 32]Anime Merritt
With all due respect for the lengthy discussion at hand, I really just had a burning desire to post comment number 32. Since I now find myself here writing and with plenty of time on my hands, I might as well say something.

Ray, you seem to have things pretty well figured out for yourself, but I must admit that I have understood very little of what you've been trying to say.

Ron, I appreciated your comments. There is a tone to you words that suggests a great deal of life experience.

Tom, thank you for clarifying my anxiety (in your first post). Anxiety because the fact that Mormon's are such a tiny minority discourages my faith (but does not destroy it).

The following recently occurred to me: While we can easily measure the world wide membership of the LDS church as far back as 1830, we cannot measure its world wide influence. In his post, Paul touched on the impact of coincidence in our lives. The slightest change in our external conditions (stimuli) can and does have far reaching consequences throughout the rest our lives. I won't draw this out with any fantastic examples, you can use your own imaginations. But I want to suggest that with the restoration, God set some hefty wheels in motion that have likely made an imprint on the rest of the planet.

You see, there is no doubt in my mind that in life, principles rather than doctrines have the greater impact on the course of man's eternal existence. Likewise, I don't believe that there is a religious code out there that teaches better principles than that taught by the LDS church.

I hope you see where I'm trying to go with this. God wants his children to grow up to his own stature, and the only way for them to do this is to learn and abide by correct principles. Perhaps the establishment of an obscure religious organization was just what the world needed to perpetuate some of these principles and to introduce others.

The church may not be the horse that carries the human race to our destiny of exaltation, but I propose that it could be the spur that sustains and propels our forward motion.
November 15, 2006 at 7:31 PM [# 33]Ray
Thanks. That says in a few words what it took me a long time to begin to say - and not nearly as well. Verbosity is a weakness with which I struggle constantly, as well as the tendency to complicate some things that are quite simple.

Due to the social need we all have to organize, the world needs a model organization to teach the principles that the natural man forgets and distorts. From genealogical societies growing exponentially in the decades following the restoration of the temple endowment, to James Dobson and other conservative Christian radio hosts recently encouraging families to set aside one evening a week to spend together, to the type of re-evaluation of centuries-old tenets by Baptists mentioned by Clifton, to a Nobel prize this year for a micro-loan "pioneer" (compare to the perpetual immigration and education funds) - I also believe that the impact of the restoration of the Church is FAR greater than any of us recognize. As our doctrinal understanding increases and evolves, I believe the organizational impact will increase, as well.
November 15, 2006 at 11:15 PM [# 34]Paul
Merritt, I've read your comment several times. It isn't a silver bullet, but it was a stroke of brilliance. There is more to say--even your clarifying comments raise questions--but I think they deserve a topic of their own.
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