Another Man's Treasure
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05
2007

Revering the obvious

12:57 AM 32 comments

Yesterday I posted a book review for Designing the Obvious: A common sense guide to web development. The book was a fantastic read given my professional background, but I mentioned that it didn’t have much to offer the rest of you.

Having re-read a section of the book, I now think my claim of irrelevance was incorrect. In fact there is an idea in the book just waiting to be exposed to the great religious debate that so attracts my attention and distracts my thoughts.

Trying to relate web development strategy to religious beliefs may seem a bit of a stretch, but I’ll try to connect the two and see if it makes as much sense to you as it does to me.

For developers there are two ways to expose a process to a user. We can create a process that matches a user’s mental model (the way they think about the task) or we can create a process that matches the computer’s implementation model (the way the computer actually carries out a request.) The former is obviously the better option because it allows a user to accomplish their goal without having to understand what the computer actually does.

The distinction might be clarified by considering the task of deleting files from a computer. These days we know that we can delete a file by selecting a file icon and dragging it to a trash can icon, a process that matches our mental model of the task because it visually re-creates the process of throwing trash into the bin under our desk. But some of us remember the days of deleting files from DOS- or older UNIX-based computers—far less intuitive, with abbreviated commands and options that matched the computer’s implementation model, not the user’s mental model.

It is this distinction between implementation models and mental models that creates the opportunity to apply web development to religion. This excerpt from Designing the Obvious should make the connection:

“A mental model, in other words, is what we believe to be true, generally based upon our experiences, and how we assimilate new things into our existing knowledge. It doesn’t have to be the truth, and it usually isn’t. It just has to settle in our heads well enough to let us sleep at night. It has to help us understand how to use a computer and understand what it is, but not necessarily what it really does.

“For users to feel good about an application, they need to feel as if they understand it. Making it as simple as possible to understand—even if that understanding is completely inaccurate—is designing the obvious. Of course, the inaccurate understanding has to be useful as a way of thinking and simplifying, but as long as that’s true, the design has a better chance of succeeding.

“In other words, it’s OK if the user is completely wrong in her perception of what is happening as long as her sense of understanding makes her feel good and competent, and she can accomplish her goals with her understanding, regardless of how faulty it might be.”

I can easily see how similar logic might apply to religion in general and to the LDS Church specifically, but I’m not sure which of several potential applications makes the most sense.

Just like a web application, religion seems to work best when it is obvious. A successful religion would be one that obfuscates the confusing details and simply allows adherents to meet their spiritual goals. It would allow members to believe they understand how to use God and understand what God is, but not necessarily what God really does. In short, a successful religion ought to match our mental model about God, it ought to be simple, and it ought to let us avoid exposure to things that unnecessarily confuse us.

Unfortunately religion sits on a slippery slope and can’t seem to resist trying to define and explain each of life’s mysteries. Just as tribal folklore told us how the zebra got its stripes, religion seeks to explain the origin of our species and nature of our maker. Some go even further, explaining different languages and skin color, dabbling in extra-terrestrial phenomena, and defining eternal relationships that resemble multi-level-marketing schemes. None of these efforts disprove a religion, to be sure, but they certainly keep us from labeling them “obvious.”

The Pareto principle, commonly known as the 80-20 rule, suggests that 80 percent of the consequences result from 20 percent of the causes. In terms of web development, it means that 80 percent of an application’s usefulness will be derived from just 20 percent of its features. Accepting this approximation means developers should list every potential feature and then identify and create the 20 percent will satisfy 80 percent of user needs, leaving the balance for future iterations of the project. In theory, this reduction leads to an obvious, and successful, application.

I don’t believe religion is exempt from the Pareto principle. Religion has historically sought to answer all of life’s unanswerable questions, and new religions therefore have an enormous list of potential “features” to include. Since I know very little about my own faith but even less about any other, I have to use the LDS Church as an example.

If the principles from Designing the Obvious can be applied to religion, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young ought to have taken a vastly different approach when they set the LDS Church on its course. Had they done so no one would wonder if Mormons really believe Adam to be the God of this world, no one would ask if polygamous marriage in the next life is the key to salvation, and none of us would know what it means to hie to Kolob.

The inclusion of these 80-percent doctrines certainly doesn’t mean the LDS Church isn’t true, it simply means that from a perspective of usability it is extremely cumbersome. Perhaps recognizing this, Church leaders seem to have expended great effort to sanitize past teachings—to identify and emphasize the 20 percent of the religion that will satisfy 80 percent of the members’ needs.

Would religion be better if it promoted a simpler understanding, even if the understanding were ultimately incorrect? Or is religion necessarily too complex to benefit from an obvious design? If an attempt were made to simplify the LDS belief system to include only the core 20 percent, which “features” do you think would make the cut? Perhaps the Pareto principle is already being applied at an individual level—perhaps so many of my peers have accepted what I struggle with simply because they have pruned their belief system to ignore the 80 percent they don’t need to meet their goals, while I still seek to use 100 percent of the doctrine.

I know it’s been a while since we talked religion, but let me know what you think about these ideas. I’m trying to overcome my expectation of perfection in my writing, so I’m forcing myself not to edit this too heavily. Accordingly it may not be as clear as I’d like, but I think it should be sufficient to start a conversation.

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Your Comments

February 05, 2007 at 6:33 PM [# 1]marinamo
I think the 20% could be taken care of with one doctrine: Love One Another. That feature fits any religion, and in fact does not even need to be combined with religion at all.

I am not a computer person--in fact, without these obvious designs you are studying, I would probably not even use a computer. I am happy to have all my needs met with a click and no additional thought on my part. But I wonder, are you?? When you see a new feature on someone else's program, do you just accept that it does what you want it to do, or do you want to know how it is actually doing it?

I would say there are those who are happy to have their religious needs met with a "click" and then there are those who want to know the actual reality behind the doctrines.

The difference between using obvious design for computers and using it for religion is, when a computer programmer offers me a program full of things I do not understand but easy for me to use nonetheless, he does not deny the fact that the program is in fact designed in a way to hide the real application behind the feel good click. There are no claims of being the One True Computer Program or threats of damnation for using a different program. People do not get slaughtered in the name of a computer design.
February 05, 2007 at 11:06 PM [# 2]Anime Merritt
My take is that the user interface – religion – that God has provided us with is vastly different from the well-oiled juggernaut of a machine that powers it. Religion was designed to take man from one state and aid him in reaching another. It doesn't particularly matter if man understands what the states mean, how they came to be, or even what his destiny is. Parents program their children to say "please" and "thank you" years before the kids are capable of even experiencing consideration of others.

We toss around words like atonement, damnation, repentance, and exaltation while we can barely fathom their significance (or insignificance???).

C. S. Lewis seemed to share this view. In one of his lesser-read works, Letters to Malcolm, he described religious pedagogy as conveying to human perception only a blurry shadow of the truths that rule heaven and earth.

If we are eternal, and so is progress, how can we assume that we have even a glimpse of the perspective we will possess two trillion years from now?

It may sound comical, but consider what Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, "You want the truth? Well you can't handle the truth!" I honestly think that our mortal minds are far too infantile to wrap themselves around the complexities of existence.

I know I'm straying from your original ideas, but I definitely think that religion is a user interface designed to perform a function in the best possible way. The problem is that we don’t always have a clear vision of what that function is. Maybe we did before we bought into the program and decided to come to earth. Maybe we didn’t. Our belief is that God our creator knows, and that he’s a pretty good programmer.

Think this makes religion, even life itself, seem like a manipulative game? No more so than the scenario of the parent teaching manners to the child. The child must grow, must learn, must progress if he or she is to continue existing. And the parent must aid the development as best he can.

Then what of the muddled user interface we have in our religion? Who says it’s muddled? If we don’t fully comprehend the tool’s purpose, how can we judge that it has been poorly designed?
February 06, 2007 at 7:02 AM [# 3]Ray
Two very short comments, since I have to run:

"Now we see through a glass darkly." I believe that has applied to all (even Jesus to some degree until some point in his life, if the Bible is to be believed), and many of our conflicts come from forgetting that basic point.

The 20% is the basic Gospel (the good news); the 80% is man's best attempts to elaborate - and, yes, all too often, to manipulate. (see the first point again) Too many people get stuck debating the 80% and forget the first point. I know I do. I love the intellectual challenge of the 80%, but I try very hard to keep in mind that it's just the 80% - not the 20%.
February 06, 2007 at 11:46 PM [# 4]Paul
Merritt, I'll respond to your comment first since you just ate lettuce wraps at our table and therefore owe me a little leniency. :)

You're hinting at exactly the thing that bothers me--"It doesn't particularly matter if (we) understand what the states mean, how they came to be, or even what (our) destiny is."

Yes! Amen! This is exactly what I mean. Give me the simple, basic 20%--the 20% that resonates, that inspires men toward acts of charity and kindness, that draws one closer to an understanding of life's joys--and forget about the rest. If our mortal minds can never comprehend eternity, why do churches try so hard to present wholly unsatisfying explanations?

I just want a religion that is simple, that admits imperfection and ignorance, that shrugs its shoulders at complicated theology and answers, "It doesn't really matter" when people ask to understand things we can't understand.
February 07, 2007 at 12:06 AM [# 5]Paul
Ray,

The trouble is that in a religion that claims 100% truth, the 20% that really matters is inexorably connected to the 80% that doesn't. It's not that I want to understand or debate the 80%--I want to wish it out of existence altogether. I don't want a religion that makes me twist my head in knots to accept both the reality of evolution and the literal tale of Adam and Eve.

In short, I guess you could say I want a religion that is based on the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture. I'm screwed!

It baffles me that I so frequently agree with you, Ray, yet I have no idea how you've managed to reach the conclusions you seem to have reached. We agree on every point along the chain and still come to very different conclusions. I'm inclined to believe I am the one making the mistake, but even when looking at it that way I can't find the connection. I sure envy people like you and Merritt...
February 07, 2007 at 6:37 PM [# 6]Ray
I want to answer this one carefully and thoughtfully, but I don't want to offend - or cause misunderstanding, which is just as likely. I'm sure this will end up being too long, but I feel compelled to try to explain as fully as I can. Please forgive the length.

I am going to make my first point based on almost twenty-five years of association with your sister and, therefore, indirect membership in your family. To apply it directly to you would be somewhat presumptuous, so I will use my observations of Michelle instead - and let you take what also applies to you and discard the rest. Also, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, I do not mean this to reflect a "holier than thou" viewpoint. I don't believe that at all. I simply am trying to address your bafflement over how we can agree on the points but reach such different conclusions.

Michelle and I were raised with very different paradigms within which our perceptions and viewpoints were shaped. It is difficult to say this the way I mean it, but the world of her formative years (all or nothing, black and white, absolute truth vs. complete error, 100% vs. 0%, Mormon vs. Gentile, purity vs. corruption, etc.) is very different than the world of mine (Gospel principles vs. apostate variations, absolute rejection of personal judgments - as opposed to judging actions, focus on similarities over differences, etc.). Both, in their own way, contained elements of "black and white", but Michelle's led to unrealistic expectations and classification and guilt and conflict, while mine led to a more lenient perspective. That's one reason my personal moral standards are considered quite conservative, but my political views actually are a bit left of center.

This difference in formative perception has created different filters for the information we consider - and, therefore, the conclusions we ultimately reach. Michelle has a MUCH harder time accepting the gap between the ideal and the real than I do, specifically because she felt expected to live the ideal and felt guilty for not being able to achieve it. That pressure was heightened by her position in the family, and it is similar in that regard to Paul's and Becci's position, but it would have been felt regardless. Even after nearly 25 years, she still fights the frustration that accompanies every slip and every manifestation of her imperfection - the remnants of the unrealistic expectations of her youth.

Why do I share this in this manner? I think you and I both see very clearly the gap between the ideal that we preach and the reality we live - and the attendant gap between the organizational ideal and reality. That gap frustrates and, in a real sense, wounds you, because you were taught to expect the ideal; it doesn't frustrate or wound me, because I was taught to accept and embrace the gap. You were taught that the "fullness of the Gospel" applies to everything that is said by the leadership of the Church; I was taught that that "fullness of the Gospel" applies to the core creeds (essentially, the first four Articles of Faith), while the rest is just the best way to explain things in our own time and place. You were taught to value immutability above all else; I was taught to honor ever-changing, evolutionary understanding.

The true irony of this is that my parents never articulated ANY of this the way I do. My father graduated from high school only because it was expected of him. He HATED school. He is very perceptive (full of common sense), but not at all scholarly. My mother lived in her own world, literally apart from the reality of her surroundings. They simply lived the principles of the Articles of Faith and the Sermon on the Mount; they "showed" us how to live much more than they "taught" us.

Again, this is difficult to say correctly, but you grew up in a paradigm of justice; I grew up in one of mercy. Neither one necessarily is "correct". Michelle can be much too hard on herself; I can be much too lenient. Michelle often tries to do way too much and feels guilty at not being able to get all of it done; I often don't do as much as I could and am not affected enough to change. Ironically, this means that I have a harder time feeling the motivation that produces true repentance, while Michelle feels the motivation deeply but struggles to accept the attendant forgiveness - specifically because she can't let go of the unrealistic expectations of her formative years. We are perfect for each other largely because we help each other recognize and deal with our shortcomings. I see what I need in her, and she sees what she needs in me. Together, we're a pretty good person.

To wrap up this point, I think you don't want the frustration and conflict of your inherent paradigm; you want the peace of the Gospel without the guilt of the Law of Moses approach. You are inclined to reject subjective aspects of organized religion, because you were taught that there is no subjectivity within "the revealed word." On the other hand, I have no problem with the subjectivity (and even the obvious mistaken opinions of the past), because I was taught that such subjectivity and mistakes are an inevitable part of mortality - even among the prophets.

I think a huge part of your struggle is that you want to accept the fundamental concept of a merciful and universal atonement, but it wasn't what was transmitted to you as you internalized your first paradigm. You want a theology that empowers and frees and elevates, not one that judges and restricts and condemns. You know you are a good person - actually a very good person, and you want to stop feeling like a bad person simply because you aren't perfect. In your own words, you don't want to care about the 80%, but you've been taught that it is wrong not to care about it. You don't want that conflict, and deep down you know that you don't "deserve" the guilt that you feel. To some degree, this is all conjecture, so forgive me if I am off base.

For what it's worth, we agree so much along the chain but come to such different conclusions specifically because I really don't care much, at least on a personal and emotional level, about the 80%. For example, When I teach about the apostasy and restoration in our Melchizedek Priesthood prep classes, I don't mention the 80% at all. I focus instead entirely on the way that the apostasy altered the core principles of the Gospel (the nature and very existence of a separate Father, the role of Jesus as the Savior and Redeemer, the importance of faith in the transforming power of the atonement, the critical need for a positive and empowering understanding of repentance, and the guidance of the Holy Ghost). I really don't care about much else. If tithing, the Word of Wisdom, the ecclesiastical structures, the format of meetings, the distribution of the priesthood, the age of priesthood ordination and advancement, etc. all changed radically, my response would be, "OK. So what?" I accept and "believe in them" for our time, but they aren't part of the Gospel - the Good News. They help us serve God and man, and I accept them as given through prophets, but if other prophets disregard or alter them - so what?

Perhaps more on other points later; perhaps not. Let's see the reaction to this one first.
February 08, 2007 at 5:35 PM [# 7]Paul
Your perceptions are for the most part accurate; like the rest of you I am a product of my experiences, obviously including childhood. It should be noted that just as your dad never explicitly taught you the things you listed, I don't remember any explicit lessons that resulted in my current perspective. (And as far as I know, only two of us seven children think like me—probably just natural skepticism.)

I would love to share your perspective, but it confuses me. What you seem to be saying is, in a world where A equals B, you believe A but disbelieve B.

In 2003 General Conference Hinckley and Holland both said essentially that there is no room in the Church for fence-sitters--ours is an "all or nothing" religion. In other words, they dismiss the idea that B merely resembles, includes, shapes, or is related to A—we are taught that believing A means believing B.

If you believe A then you believe in the divine association of the men who tell you that A is equal to B; how can then you choose to believe A but not B? (I'm not challenging you; I really would love to know, for my own benefit, how you reconcile the contradictions.)

This is the crucial issue for me, and maybe for others. I recognize that my upbringing has primed me for this sort of conflict, but frankly, my upbringing matches Church teachings right down the line. It’s not that I’m confused by my parents’ interpretation of doctrine, I’m confused by the Church’s interpretation of doctrine.

Did I understand you properly? How can I get to A without B?
February 08, 2007 at 6:09 PM [# 8]marinamo
Ray, in your opinion, how many members share your interpretation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I know you have no way of knowing for sure, I am just curious what your opinion is.
February 08, 2007 at 9:17 PM [# 9]Ray
To Paul's questions: First, I don't see myself as a fence-sitter in the slightest. My initial inclination always is to accept what is taught by the General Authorities as divinely inspired and worth following. Within a big picture viewpoint, I believe they will not lead us astray - even when one occasionally "falls" in some way. I accept callings without much, if any, hesitation. I attend the temple as often as I can. I participate actively in preaching the Gospel. I pay a full tithing. I follow the Word of Wisdom. etc., etc., etc.

Despite what my last posting might seem to imply, I believe DEEPLY in the reality of the apostasy and the restoration. Even though I don't invest much emotionally in the 80%, I live it as well as I can and don't reject any of it as uninspired claptrap. I will stack up the fruit of the Restoration collectively against the fruit of any other religious movement without any hesitation. I have studied the mainstream Christian creeds in classes taught by some of the most highly respected Catholic and Protestant theologians in the world, and that experience actually strengthened my testimony of the restored Gospel. I believe firmly that accepting the Restoration requires a level of commitment that is difficult for many people, and that such a commitment is impossible if you are sitting on a fence -- if you don't dive in and swim.

We have discussed this in former threads, but what I tried to say is that I don't care much about the "extra-Gospel" aspects of religion - ours or others. Ironically, I was saying that my conclusions are different than yours, Paul, because I do what you say you want to do - I don't wish the 80% out of existence, but I classify it out of urgent relevance. I accept it in its current form and move on. I don't spend any time thinking about it except in a setting like this. I've done that and put it behind me. I accept it and look for ways to understand it; I just don't waste time and energy worrying about it. My religion says that's fine, since I'll be OK as long as I keep doing my best - as long as I "endure to the end" after diving in with both feet.

As to Marina's question, I doubt there is a large percentage of members who would phrase things the way I do. However, I think there are FAR more than most people realize who, in one way or another, see things similarly. How many people say something like, "I don't understand this or that, but I know the Church has been restored and the Gospel it teaches is true", or "I don't think wearing more than one pair of earrings is a sin, but the prophet said to only wear one, so I will do that", or "I don't care what others say; I have my own testimony", or "I know I'm not as good as I want to be, but that's OK since I'm as good as I can be", or any number of other possibilities? How many of the early Saints didn't practice polygamy (couldn't really accept it as applying to them) but still maintained a solid testimony of the Church and its leaders? How many don't care now at all what someone else thinks about Pepsi and the Word of Wisdom? I think the core of my paradigm is much more common than you think, although it might not be expressed in the same way or believed as extensively. As I said earlier, I often make things more complicated than they need to be.

Finally, Paul, I find it interesting that you want to wish the 80% out of existence (that you bemoan the fact that our religious leaders insist on addressing the 80% and not focusing solely on the 20%), and yet in previous threads you discussed your frustration over the way that our current leaders seem to be ignoring the controversial comments of past prophets and simply focusing on basic doctrines. All I am saying is that, perhaps, developing the 80% was necessary in a day and age of establishment and persecution and death but is no longer necessary in this day and age of relative maturity and peace and prosperity. Perhaps in this busy, complex, polarizing world we need to slow down and simplify -- to "be still" doctrinally and focus on the atonement.

One of the central messages of Jacob 5 is that the pruning of the vineyard is accomplished as slowly as is necessary to sustain the trees and allow them to produce good fruit. I think the current pruning fits what you say you want and what I know I want. Perhaps the prophets are being inspired to lead the Church to where you want it to be - and I want it to be - and Marina wants it to be - and Michelle wants it to be - and, I believe, MANY others want it to be.
February 09, 2007 at 12:49 AM [# 10]823
Three comments. Three deletions. I just can't find a constructive way to say that 20% does not make a religion true. Ignoring 80% of a religion does not make sense.

You choose the one sentence out of five (20%) that you associate yourself with-- and ignore the rest. This is what ignoring 80% of Mormonism is about.

1. God loves all his children so much that he sent his son to die for them, so that they may gain everlasting life.
2. However, God is a sexist .
3. God told Jospeh Smith to have sex with a teenage girl and this was the foundation for revelation on the "New and Everlasting Covenent."
4. God is a racist.
5. God lives on a planet near Kolob.

February 09, 2007 at 9:59 AM [# 11]Paul
823, what a mysterious name... Perhaps an allusion to D&C 82:3? Or maybe not. ;)

I think you'll agree that Ray didn't mean to say he ignores the 80%--his second comment makes that clear. But I do think that many faithful LDS do ignore certain teachings they don't like. It may not be 80%, but even 1% is troubling for me.

Without going into the great fundamental debate that swirls around items 2 through 5 in 823's comment, I think the real issue here is falsifiability. A falsifiable theory--the classic example being "All swans are white"--can be disproved by observing a single counterexample -- just one black swan. Atheists are quick to remind us that "God lives" is not a valid hypothesis because there can be no counterexample available--there is nothing like a black swan that can disprove the God hypothesis.

I accept that God's existence can never be proven or disproven, and that doesn't bother me. But that ambivalence goes missing when I consider some Mormon teachings because there is, or could be, a black swan to disprove theories. I won't bother with examples; I think if you're interested enough to be following this thread you already know of them.
February 09, 2007 at 2:31 PM [# 12]Ray
Again, I want to say this as carefully and diplomatically as I can. I am committed to not using this site to get into arguments over misrepresentations, generalizations or loaded comments, particularly with someone whom I don't know and whose motivation I don't understand - and, apparently, whom Paul does not recognize either. I do not mean that as a slam on 823, whoever you are. Seriously, I don't. However, I don't know you, and the comment makes it clear that you have not read most of what I have written over the last months - or understood what I have been saying in this thread. Remember, I have been exposed to, studied, discussed and considered just about every single complaint imaginable. I never said I ignore it; I said I have reached a point - a perspective - where I don't care about it. There is a HUGE difference.

I will make one last attempt to explain why controversial conclusions, discarded doctrine, mistaken pronouncements, etc. don't derail my personal convictions: I believe VERY strongly in the concept of an apostasy that led to the corruption of the core principles of the Gospel - those aspects of the teachings of the New Testament that constitute the Good News - and a Restoration that brought them back. (and I have reached that conviction after intense individual and formal study - NOT at an LDS institution, but at an explicitly non-Mormon Divinity School) I believe DEEPLY that the core principles of the Gospel are immutable. However, I also believe that those principles can't be taught in a Platonic cave - that they always are transmitted and taught (then translated / filtered and received) by real people with real weaknesses and individual perspectives and limitations - even those we accept as prophets. Therefore, what we get is, even at its most pure, a filtered version of truth.

Furthermore, as we move further and further away from those core principles, individual human perspective moves rapidly to the forefront and multiple filtering occurs. This might be too much of a tangent, but I have no problem accepting the founders of most major religions as prophets to their people, inspired to provide a version of truth that would lift and improve their time and culture. At the same time, I have no problem thinking that there was much of what they taught that we now would classify as incorrect. It worked as a guide for their people in their time, but it doesn't work at all in ours. They did their best, but their best, just like mine, is limited to something short of perfection.

When this moves to our own more recent history, I apply the same standard. What is reflective of the Gospel is immutable and objective as anything can be; the rest is subjective and cultural and clouded by all kinds of influences. I used 20% and 80% in the sense in which it was introduced in Paul's post - NOT as a literal proportion. (If I tried to assign an actual ratio, based on everything that ever has been said by all prophets and apostles, I probably would shift the percentages more toward 5% and 95% - with the current prophets and apostles focusing more and more on the Gospel and less and less on the other teachings, almost to a 50/50 split lately.)

Given that we live in a real world with real issues and real messiness, most people want and need guidance on specific things outside the scope of the core principles of the Gospel. In that sphere, "love God and man" is all that is necessary in a vacuum - all the law and the prophets hang on it - but human nature demands more than that for most people. Most people need some part of the 80% beyond "love God and man", and almost all of them want someone else to explain it to them. Given that need, leaders try to provide explanations, and, unfortunately, those explanations don't always measure up to the accuracy of the Gospel itself because they MUST be presented in a way and a language that the hearers can accept and understand at least to some degree. If they come through and are received by inspiration, they work for their time and culture; if not, they don't.

What I am saying is that changes to teachings among those things that are not part of the core Gospel principles, even instances where those changes are due to new inspiration / revelation that fundamentally alters those teachings, don't bother me at all - since that is what ALWAYS happens in ALL societies in ALL recorded scripture from EVERY dispensation to the next. Prophets change what previous prophets taught - sometimes subtly and sometimes obviously. They always have and they always will. Ideally, core creeds are unchanging; doctrine and theology are evolutionary by definition. Therefore, I consider those teachings, try to reach an understanding of them and how they apply to my time, follow them in my own life, and don't spend time and energy worrying about the change.
February 09, 2007 at 7:01 PM [# 13]Ray
One more very quick point: The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times doesn't mean that the dispensation will begin with all knowledge and understanding - complete and whole. The early development of doctrine and theology proves that beyond any doubt for anyone who stops to consider it with any objectivity. The name of the dispensation simply implies that a fullness will be reached within the dispensation. Why would someone assume that a church that grew and changed and evolved and NEVER accepted a closed canon or cessation of revelation would suddenly or even gradually stop growing and changing and evolving and becoming closed?

My father used to say that, as important as former prophets were (including Joseph Smith), the most important prophet is always the current one and, as important as former scriptures are (including the Book of Mormon) the most important scripture is always the latest one. I believe that, and it informs my perspective greatly.
February 10, 2007 at 9:19 AM [# 14]Ron
My, what an intriguing thread!

Ray, I find your analysis of your and Michelle's upbringing to be incredibly insightful! Ah, how the "sins" of the parents impact even the 3rd and 4th generations! For some years, I've thought about strands of how our children were raised compared to how I was raised, to how my parents, and then their parents, were raised. Hopefully, our children will recognize the deficiencies and remedy them in raising their own children.

As a missionary, I was placed such that I could observe both of my mission presidents up close, day to day. The contrast between them was dramatic. The first had been head of the US Tariff Commission under 5 US presidents--of both parties--an almost unheard of phenomenon for an appointed position. He was an excellent organizer. The second one had been a stake patriarch and was a spiritual giant.

Without taking the time for details and examples, I quickly learned that the Lord calls any given leader for his strengths, not his weaknesses. The Lord knows what any given congregation of Saints needs at any given time, and He provides a leader who can meet those needs. I noticed that the subsequent leader frequently possesses traits and abilities that the released leader did not have (or at least not in abundance). That didn't mean the previous leader necessarily failed, although any individual can make choices that cause him/her to fail. A leader can succeed very well in meeting the current needs of the people, and the next leader can succeed very well in moving the group (or individuals in the group) forward in new ways that may, on the surface, make the prior leader seem to have been ineffective.

The conclusion I drew from those observations and experiences was that leaders are "regular" people, trying to do their best. They bring abilities that can lift the people for a time; when their work is done, another leader can lift them in other ways. Therefore, I must be careful NOT to criticize my leaders, not to find fault with them. Even if they don't meet what I deem to be my needs at the time, it's entirely possible that "my" needs weren't the reason the Lord called them in the first place. They may be meeting the needs of other people in significant ways.

There's a fine line between accepting the fact that mortals are imperfect and therefore not criticizing them, and supposing that they were infallible. Most people seem to struggle to accept a leader's fallibility without also criticizing.

As I've said before, I have a whole lot of gospel questions I'd like answers to. But I accept the fact that my mortal body constrains my understanding to the degree that I cannot grasp those kinds of ideas yet, and therefore I'm content to accept the fact that I'm going to learn a whole lot, really fast, when I get to the Spirit World.

In the meantime, I have my hands full trying to learn to live as I should live and serve as I should serve.
February 10, 2007 at 10:09 AM [# 15]Donna
I just lost what I was typing. If the incomplete version somehow went through my computer to yours, sorry.

I'll begin again and try to reconstruct. . .

Thoughts from "The Hiding Place" written by Corrie ten Boom, a Christian woman caught up in Hitler's anti-Jewish/WW II persecution.
I think the application from her life to ours is obvious. (A thought provoking book you may want to add to your list.)

A ten-year-old Corrie asked her father, "What is sexism?" Rather than answering her directly, her father asked her to carry his heavy traveling case from the train. Corrie could not do it; "It's too heavy." Her father's reply: "Yes, and it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little girl to carry such a load. It's the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger, you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you."

A few pages later: "Corrie, when you and I go to Amsterdam--when do I give you your ticket?" "Why, just before we get on the train." "Exactly. And our wise Father in heaven knows when we're going to need things, too. Don't run out ahead of Him, Corrie. When the time comes. . . you will look into your heart and find the strength you need--just in time."

Another Corrie quote: "I know that such [childhood] memories are the key not to the past, but to the future. I know that the experiences of our lives, when we let God use them, become the mysterious and perfect preparation for the work He will give us to do."
--------------------------

Age is more than chronological. Some of us are ready to hold our "ticket" sooner than others. That is neither good or bad--just factual: each of us progresses spiritually, as in other facets of our lives, in individual ways.

Where I am on my spiritual journal is not important. What Father cares about is: 1. Am I on the right road? 2. Am I progressing in the right direction on that road? If I can answer yes to both those questions, I will get to my destination. When I get there, it won't matter if 99% of humanity has arrived before I do.

Be patient with yourself, Paul. Father will give you your "ticket" at the time He knows is best. In Biblical terms: Line upon line, precept upon precept.





February 11, 2007 at 11:05 AM [# 16]Ray
I found a great quote that describes some of our conversations well:

"Before I came here, I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture, I am still confused -- but on a higher level."
February 12, 2007 at 12:04 AM [# 17]marinamo
I like the train ticket analogy, but if I may be so bold to expand on it...

Let's say Corrie has already grasped that ticket in both hands and gotten on board the train. It wasn't a hard choice for her to make, because she had been assured all her life that this was the one and only train that could take her on the straight and narrow tracks to the one destination that would bring her the most happiness.

Corrie is happy being on the train but then she comes across information about past experiences on the train. It becomes obvious that the train is not in fact on a straight and narrow track as she believed, that in fact it has often veered east or west and at times even headed in the opposite direction of their ultimate destination. This is a bit confusing for Corrie, since she has always been assured that the engineer is in direct contact with the one person at their final destionation who has the exact map of how to get there. Not only that, but Corrie has been assured that the engineer of the train, so long as he is in the engine car, cannot lead the train in the wrong direction.

Now as I understand it (with heavy emphasis on that, though I'm sure he'll be quick to set me straight if I'm off base) Ray's thinking would be that the deviations in direction are of no importance because the train will eventually get to the final destination and that it makes sense in fact to be changing directions because there are always obstacles such as landscape and weather and even human error on the part of the engineer to contend with which would justify, if not require, the change of course.

And as I understand it (and again, apologies if I am off) where Paul is having issues disconnecting A from B stems from the promises of infallibility when the engineer is in the engine car and the lack of transparency,at best, and honesty, at worst, in deviations from the promised straight and narrow track.

Choo choo.

February 13, 2007 at 7:53 AM [# 18]Paul
I guess we're all waiting for someone to respond to this, but Marina's last comment is right on the money.

I understand Ray's idea that our leaders were/are part of a learning process and that mistakes are to be expected as understanding increases--in fact I like the idea quite a bit. But it doesn't match what the Church teaches.

This disparity introduces the need to rationalize my system of belief--something my wife calls "personalizing the gospel." I am content to do so, though it goes against the paradigm I grew up with so I'm not yet very good at it. Thus we have discussions like this one...
February 13, 2007 at 10:58 AM [# 19]Ray
I love Marina's analogy, but, being me, I can't help expanding a bit, as well.

Long ago and far away, Merritt described the Church as being a critical vehicle. I think we've come almost full circle, so I will try to give you a conclusion to my view of the train. Knowing me, it will be a bit circuitous, but I will try not to meander too much.

I believe that one of the core teachings of the Bible is that we have a Father in Heaven who literally is a father to us. I don't know how that worked, and I really don't care that I don't know, but that thread runs throughout the entire Old and New Testaments. We are connected to Him in a very real way, and through the Plan that included a Savior and Redeemer, we have the potential to become like Him. Beyond the verses and passages that state that potential blatantly, over and over and over again in the Bible we are commanded to develop certain characteristics specifically because He has those characteristics. Our ultimate objective should be to live in such a way that we can become like Him and live with Him in an exalted state. (Tangentially, even if that actually were not possible, I still think it is the standard by which we should live.)

That basic understanding was lost completely during the Great Jewish apostasy that followed the writings of Malachi; it was restored in the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles; it was defended and re-emphasized in the Pauline epistles and the others that follow them; and it was lost completely again in the Great Christian apostasy. The Great Jewish apostasy literally bound the people within a system that tried to keep them from sinning (sound familiar?), while, in a very real and practical sense, the Christian apostasy eliminated the Father, as a separate and distinct Being and as our ultimate role model and spiritual destination. Unlike the Jewish apostasy, which provided the age-old alternative to the Plan of Salvation, the Christian apostasy created a theology in which Celestial potential disappeared from view all together, and the destiny of mankind was changed to a Terrestrial goal. (There is much more that could be discussed at this point, but it's not critical to this analogy.) The Jewish apostasy altered the manner in which the people envisioned the journey to their ultimate destination; the Christian apostasy eliminated the destination altogether and substituted an alternative destination.

The train Marina mentions is a good analogy for the way I see the Church and the restoration. God, the Father, gave us a vehicle by which we could travel to the Celestial Kingdom. That journey is predicated on the conductor knowing the destination and steering the train in that direction, making any necessary changes to the course and to the train itself as obstacles and impediments arise. Some geographic obstacles might require slowing down, speeding up, reducing power, increasing power,etc. Some political obstacles might require a show of force (strengthening the train) or diplomacy (camouflaging the train) or even accommodation (altering the train itself). As more passengers board, structural changes must be made. Some outside the train might mistake it for a dangerous implement and attempt to attack it, requiring either a strong and ardent defense or a detour that will avoid or discontinue immediate confrontation; others might see it as completely irrelevant and totally ignore it, requiring the conductor to blow the whistle loudly and often. In short, none of these perceptions allow it to fulfill its mission, so the conductor must change the appearance and/or actions of the train to preserve its existence and destiny, as well as to attract more passengers.

I also believe that passengers get on constantly who change their minds along the way and decide to disembark. I believe that the conductors do the best they can to keep the train on course, but sometimes the cumulative weight of the mis-perceptions of the passengers and those outside the train, as well as the inability of the conductors themselves to understand and communicate the directions perfectly, temporarily move the train off course. When that occurs, the same conductor or a subsequent one "rights the ship" or changes course or receives new directions or however else it might be phrased.

I believe that the destination (Eternal Life in the likeness of the Father) has come into and out of focus throughout recorded history. I believe that the train has been derailed completely and rocketed essentially out of control toward an alternate destination in every dispensation and every culture among every people. When that has happened, a new conductor has been chosen to grab hold of the controls and right the course. Furthermore, the longer the train has been out of control, the more drastic the necessary correction has been in order to separate the train completely from the former path. To complete the analogy, I believe an "over-correction" often is necessary to right a course that simply is so far out of whack that more "reasonable" corrections just won't do the trick. Once that initial, drastic correction (which can throw the passengers around dramatically and seem like a train wreck from the outside) has occurred, more moderate corrections can keep the train on course. (Jacob 5 is very instructive, particularly the last half.)

The key to my perspective is that an understanding of our ultimate destination - the same understanding that was revealed to previous prophets (both inside and outside Judeo-Christian tradition) and recorded in their writings - has been restored and the train once again is moving toward it. It is interesting that one of the core principles that so inflamed the early opposition to the Church (our divine nature and potential), and continues to feed much of the most bitter theological opposition today, also is one tenant of our religion that began making a comeback in the philosophical world shortly after the Restoration and is appearing in fascinating variations within the very denominations that condemn us for believing it. I believe the righting of the course has an attendant impact on the broader world that is subtle, gradual and easy to overlook. Again, in a very real and powerful way, the train pulls many along in its wake who have no idea they are being pulled.
February 13, 2007 at 8:46 PM [# 20]marinamo
"This disparity introduces the need to rationalize my system of belief--something my wife calls "personalizing the gospel." I am content to do so, though it goes against the paradigm I grew up with so I'm not yet very good at it."

As with all things, the more you do it, the better you'll be at it. I think the hardest part is coming to terms with the idea that the train you thought you were riding in all this time does not actually even exist. In a way it is a grieving process (albeit a weird one, since even as you are grieving the loss, there is still a large population that still believes in the figment train that is and has always been on straight and narrow tracks). But you know, if you take a look around at the real train, it's not such a bad way to travel--full of people you love, fairly comfortable, and it offers a sense of safety and security for the journey.
February 13, 2007 at 10:09 PM [# 21]Ray
Very well worded, Marina.

One last, and concise for once, comment (at least for me): There is a famous Biblical verse that says "the truth shall make you free." I know there are dedicated people who disagree, but I have reached a point (a perspective) that is incredibly liberating. I have thought and studied and prayed and lived and tried to serve and weighed the options, and I have chosen consciously the life I live. I live and believe how I do through a conscious choice, and that is exhilarating. It leaves me free to ACT without worrying about how others view my actions - to BELIEVE without worrying about how others view my beliefs - to try to BECOME what I want to become without worrying about the fact that others don't believe I can do so. It also frees me from judging anyone, including myself. I simply can LIVE my own life and try to help others live better lives - without feeling a need to impose or coerce or cajole.

I like who I am when I am on the train, and I like most of the people who are riding with me. I am saddened when I see fellow passengers whose actions make it apparent that they do not understand the basic Gospel they preach, and when I see the result on those who are getting on or considering climbing aboard, but I like being allowed to cut them the same slack I desire and leave the judgment in other hands. To me, that's true freedom - truly a fun ride.
February 14, 2007 at 7:53 AM [# 22]Tom
It has been a very interesting thread, Paul. Can I just say I am proud of how insightful my wife has been. Where I would only be incite-ful, she can be eloquent.
February 14, 2007 at 10:10 AM [# 23]Ron
One part of the analogy hasn't been touched on yet.

No long-distance train has a single line of tracks. There are often additional sections of tracks so that trains can pass, change direction, etc. A skilled engineer can manage the distractions and still get the train to its final destination.

When I was a teenager, I complained bitterly to my mother once that she and dad were raising our two youngest sisters much differently than they'd raised us. We'd been raised too harshly, frankly, but our sisters were being raised with too much latitude and ambiguity. They were clearly manipulating our parents, which we kids could openly see (and I now suppose my parents recognized that, too, at least to some degree; over time, I came to realize that they were doing the best they could: They recognized having been overly strict and were trying a better way--they just didn't know exactly how.)

Mother listened and then replied, "Son, every generation should improve upon the one before it. You try to do a better job than we have done." Of course, I had no teenage answer for that.

As I've thought about this thread, and particularly Ray's input to it, I've considered how we seem to have done as parents.

Most of our children seem to have found a balance between justice and mercy.

We have a couple of children who overly emphasize justice and struggle to find a place for mercy.

And we have a couple who struggle with the notion that, although they cherish their own moral agency, resent the "injustice" of Heavenly Father not restricting the agency of the train conductors so that they avoid any possible detour along the way.

The thread so far has overlooked one key element: Each who gets on the train--and it is real--is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph declared that a prophet was not always a prophet, but only when he spoke as a prophet. And a fundamental principle of the gospel is that each of us who got on the train have the right--and in fact the responsibility--to learn personally from the Holy Ghost whether or not what the conductor is doing or saying is according to the mind and will of God.

That takes great effort and great humility. But it's the surest way to stay on the train--and not only enjoy the ride, but learn what we're supposed to learn along the way.
February 14, 2007 at 11:34 AM [# 24]Ray
Dad (and Mom),

Sometimes trying to be analytical can obscure the feeling behind the analysis. Given my contributions to this thread, I want to make sure that everyone knows how much I admire and respect you.

Part of my analysis might have led some to believe that I think I was raised in an ideal atmosphere - one better than what you gave your kids. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of my siblings have struggled greatly as a direct result of the way we were raised - with much of that stemming from my mother's condition and what my father had to do in order to accommodate that condition. We only became aware of that condition a couple of years ago, and that awareness has helped a couple of my sisters to come to grips with their childhood struggles.

As a husband, one of my most important responsibilities is helping my wife be happy and content and fulfilled. A huge aspect of that is helping her understand why she reacts the way she reacts, why she struggles with certain frustrations, why she can't eliminate tendencies she wishes she could leave behind, etc. That effort has led to much of the analysis I shared, but I failed to share how I FEEL about those who raised my wife - and for that I am sorry.

I am amazed by your and Mom's humility. Both of you are very intelligent and thoughtful, but you don't react with offense even when that intelligence is challenged. You take critique and immediately look for the kernels of truth that can help you improve, while letting go of those kernels that are incorrect and even unfair. I admire that greatly.

I could go on and on, but my main point is that, even as I try to de-construct my wife's childhood to help her learn and grow and find a higher level of peace, I am SO grateful for the foundation you provided, the effort you expended and the love you shared. Yes, many of Michelle's struggles stem from her upbringing, but that is true of all of us. More importantly, many of her qualities that inspire me and form the core of who she really is come from that same upbringing. No matter how it might appear when someone reads my other comments, I am grateful for the way you raised your daughter. It gave me the woman I love, and I wouldn't change it for anything.

Thanks, Dad and Mom.
February 14, 2007 at 12:17 PM [# 25]Donna
Life offers us a choice of trains. As we travel from A to B, we are free to choose which train we board.

Only one train went directly to the anticipated destination. The Savior, with his perfect life, was on that train.

The rest of mankind, however, don't have the luxury of such a train. We must take another train, headed for the same destination, but one which takes side trips, and even experiences temporary derailments, for whatever reasons. Course corrections are then needed.

There are also trains which are put on the tracks for personal gain of the engineer, the owner, or others who don't care about my desired destination. They purport to to be going there, but in reality, they never intended to go there.

The key to which train I should board seems to me to be based on who has given me my ticket. Satan is very good at making his ticket look very desirable. To understand the motive of the ticketman and thus choose the ticket to accept takes experience and discernment --as well as a few side trips and corrections along the way.


February 16, 2007 at 11:27 PM [# 26]Moron Eyes Even For Teen
Sometimes cheese grows mold overnight. But if you're prudent, you'll cut off the fuzzy parts, perhaps shaving a layer from the entire chunk, and preserve the still palatable inside.

So next time you open your fridge, eager for a hearty slice of Tillamook, remember not to scorn that nutritious lump that happens to be harboring an unappealing fungus.

Do remember, however, that apples rot from the inside out.
February 17, 2007 at 9:25 AM [# 27]Ray
Very intriguing and thought-provoking analogy. There are so many applications. It brings to mind the Jacob 5 message I've mentioned, but it is much more understandable to our own culture and generation. Thanks.

Would it be OK to ask for a proper introduction?
February 18, 2007 at 5:29 AM [# 28]Tom
Moron,
While your comment is indeed interesting, it is inherently covered with the same moldy problem Paul faced when this began. But clever enough to encourage me to comment-- which may be either good or bad. Depends on how much wilted lettuce you can tolerate in your salad.

The problem as Paul mentioned is that it is not possible to cut off the distasteful mold from the religion he holds dear. It is an all or nothing religion, as he referenced from the 2003 General Conference. So while it might be nice to say that we can just cut off the parts we don't like, or as Ray says, just don't dwell on them-- the reality is this: the Church teaches it is 100% true doctrinally. That leaves no room for cutting off 1% of the outside layer, or refining it down to the 20% core as was discussed in the earlier part of the thread. If any of it can be rejected, cut away or shaved off, it is really not an all or nothing religion.

So where does the moldy part fit in? Are the moldy, distasteful parts true and merely unsavory? Or are they truly worthy of rejection? In which case the Church is something other than it claims.

Of course, I am not sure if your comments were actually comparing the Church to cheese or an apple. If the apple analogy was the case, I would take greater issue, for although I reject the 100% notion of the Church, it is not rotten to the core, and no amount of wilted lettuce in the salad would lead me to that conclusion.
February 18, 2007 at 12:31 PM [# 29]Paul
How mysterious to have two anonymous posts in the same thread. (Moron's "name" reminds me of Mad Gab, which is a great party game.)

Tom, I agree with you that Marina's comments have been insightful, as was your comment above. It may be that my preconceptions leave me biased, but your comments seem clear and concise, while most of the others are still confusing and circular.

In any case, I see a few options:
  • The Church is 100% true, and the things that don't make sense to me, even the contradictions, are nonetheless sacred.

  • The Church is mostly true, with a few past errors and funky doctrines worth overlooking or ignoring. (This is only possible if one of the doctrines we choose to overlook is, "the Church is 100% true.")

  • The church may or may not be true, but it is still a valid tool for teaching God's children how to be happy.

  • It doesn't matter whether the Church is true and I ought to stop trying to reconcile the unknowable.
  • February 18, 2007 at 2:09 PM [# 30]Firs Ye Find, Nye Team Sicks
    I remember the first time I saw bleu cheese at the store. I laughed mockingly that the grocer was trying to sell food that had already gone bad. What poor sap would go for that? Boy was I a dope. But, my ignorance provided for a pleasant learning experience when I finally built up the nerve to give the moldy chunks a taste.

    Of course, other mold on other cheeses were never included in the designs of the cheesemaker. More often than not, you, the consumer, left it sitting for weeks in your fridge - uncovered and exposed to the proliferative spores populating the air.
    February 18, 2007 at 2:42 PM [# 31]Mad Gabber
    Two quick notes:

    1. If I had seen Paul's comment, I never would have posted my last.

    2. I am well aware of the fact that analogies are inherently imprecise and, hence, susceptible to confusion. As to being circular, that is purely rhetorical failure.
    February 18, 2007 at 11:47 PM [# 32]Paul
    Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth.

    Mad Gabber, your arguments in particular haven't been circular, but they have made me hungry.
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