Another Man's Treasure
APR
17
2007

The right question

12:00 AM 35 comments

Mormon cinema pioneer Richard Dutcher’s recent letter published by The Daily Herald has sparked quite a few conversations this weekend.  I wouldn’t say it has the Mormon corner of the internet all abuzz, but it certainly hummed a little, anyway.  The letter is apparently a farewell to the Mormon genre of filmmaking, and to the Mormon faith as a whole, in a sort of arrogant, self-venerating tone that reminds me a bit of the way I tend to write when I’m feeling especially worked up.

No doubt the tone of his letter might be interpreted as pompous and the message unfortunate, but I was more interested in some of the comments that followed his letter on the Herald’s website.  Some were suitably polite, congratulating Dutcher for his contributions to the genre and wishing him well as he embarks in a new direction, while others were needlessly judgmental and speculative.  One of the latter types in particular raised my eyebrow: 

“This is of course only speculation but I would guess that Richard probably committed some kind of sin and is now attempting to rationalize his behavior by asserting he is now on a ‘spiritual path which may ultimately prove incompatible with Mormon orthodoxy.’” 

Several people commenting after that remark have done their best to correct (and/or mock) the person who wrote it, but even now I have a hard time not turning this post into an arrogant tirade of my own against the sort of judgmental, short-sighted, ridiculously simplistic view so many Mormons somehow adopt when it comes to people losing the faith.  They speak of the Mormon Church as if it were the Celestial Kingdom embodied—something so wholesome that people only reject it when their sins leave them uncomfortable in the presence of the perfected ones.

Maturation involves outgrowing old opinions and replacing them with new, better ideas, and I suspect this guy’s comment made me bristle so easily because it wasn’t long enough ago that I might have been the guy writing it.  I suppose it’s comforting to know I understand better now than I did a few years ago, but still I shake my head and wonder, how do crazy ideas like this find root in mainstream Mormonism?
 
The day after Dutcher’s letter was published my wife received another issue of BYU Magazine—along with frequent requests for donations, the magazine is one of her prizes for having graduated BYU—and with it came one source of these misguided ideas. 

As I browsed the magazine the title of one article looked promising: “Finding Answers” by Joseph Fielding McConkie.  Since I’m on a quest for answers myself, I turned to the article and began reading.  On the whole I found the article to be worthwhile, stressing the importance of learning to solve our own problems and exploring issues completely before seeking confirmation. I was particularly interested in a section McConkie called “Asking the Right Question.”  Anyone who has ever asked a question understands that asking the right question often makes all the difference, and anyone who has ever had a toddler will agree that sometimes stumbling upon the “right” question takes a great deal of patience and luck.  Having experienced a few toddlers, and being willing to consider that I may be asking the wrong questions, I read the section carefully.

The author retold a story of a woman whose husband had serious doubts about the Church.  She visited McConkie hoping to gain insight, and after explaining that he didn’t know the answers to the questions, each of which “carried with it the spirit of doubt,” he proposed asking the “right” questions:

The real questions here were these: If I had been able to answer each of the questions with which this man was challenging his wife, would it have accomplished anything more than require him to come up with more questions? And why was he so anxious to discredit God and find foolishness in scripture? Perhaps he ought to be asked, “What commandment is it that you don't want to keep?” or “What blessings would you like to quit receiving?”

Ah, yes, there it is.  This why I once believed, and countless more still believe, that only lazy sinners leave the Church.  What commandment don’t you want to keep?  Come on, out with it!  Is it the booze?  Tithing?  Perhaps you can’t handle the guilt that comes from taking too many pennies from Chevron’s take-a-penny bowl?  It may be uncommon to have it stated explicitly, but this absurd notion, that serious sin always precedes apostasy, pervades at least Mormon culture and, depending on your interpretation of the phrase “one true church,” perhaps Mormon doctrine as well.

Apart from the misdirection in the section heading (asking the “right” question in this case appears to mean asking only questions that can be proven circularly and do nothing to challenge assumptions) I was disappointed by the implication that questions raised “in the spirit of doubt” are not worth addressing.  It seems to me that any question worth asking will be accompanied by the spirit of doubt; doubt is a leading indicator of both belief and disbelief.  A question asked without the spirit of doubt is no question at all, merely an excuse to hear oneself speaking.

I typically would have reacted angrily to the article, and you’re still sure to detect a hint of my frustration with it.  But as I mentioned before, the article was, ignoring these few unfortunate paragraphs, rather insightful.  I heartily agree with the notion of learning to answer our own questions and exhausting our resources before turning to God for confirmation.  So instead of anger, I think I’m actually feeling disappointment, or maybe even sadness.  I know what a struggle it is to run into a wall that seems to separate reason and religion, holding each just beyond reach.  I suspect that McConkie, and people who agree with his reasoning, have never faced the challenge themselves, nor have they ever successfully understood anyone who has. 

If they have faced the challenge or come to know another’s struggles, they certainly seem to have forgotten by now what it was really like, as their logic underscores a serious failing in communication.  Presumably, McConkie and people like him do actually care for the welfare of we doubters, yet they seem to be dismissing the fundamental conflicts as excuses for sin or doubts unworthy of exploration.  They address our doubts with answers that satisfy only believers, widening the gap between our two groups and alienating those of us least able to withstand the alienation.

If you’re a faithful Mormon and you actually care for a person whose faith is wavering, entertain this familiar advice:  Ask the Right Questions.  No, the right question is not, “Which commandment is it you don’t want to keep?”  We’re not looking for an excuse to sin.  The right question is not, “Why are you so anxious to discredit God?”  The last thing we want is to discredit God, we’re simply trying to renew faith and trust in a God we no longer know, because our perception of Him is tied to a religion that is simply not what it was portrayed to be.

If your primary objective is to defend your own faith and convince yourself that our doubts are unfounded, you may find McConkie’s “right” questions valuable tools.  In fact if they maintain your peace and keep your boat afloat I think you ought to use them.  But don’t use them under the guise of helping a doubter.  If you really want to help a struggling Mormon you have to understand what the issues really are, and once you understand what the issues are you’ll know it is a cop-out to blame our doubts on some imagined transgression.  Ours is not a simple religion.

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Your Comments

April 17, 2007 at 5:29 AM [# 1]Christfollower
The funny thing about statements like McConkie's is that the desire of my heart, the pearl of great price, the thing that I want more than anything else is for the church the missionaries taught me about to be true. I want modern revelation and modern prophets. I want God to be speaking to man in the latter days and to raise up a prophet to build the foundation of the Kingdom of God on the earth. Unfortunately it's just not true. Instead of a prophet like unto Moses we have a fatally flawed man who married teenagers, lied to his wife about it, and allowed himself to be crowned King of the World. We have prophets who, rather than shouting revealed doctrine from the housetops, claims "I don't know that we teach that anymore". We are not proud of Joseph Smith or his teachings in the church, but instead worship at the altar of accomodation with the world around us.
April 17, 2007 at 9:37 AM [# 2]Ray
As I try to explain in the rest of this comment, there are no answers to that - only responses. I have chosen not to respond.

I agree wholeheartedly with both Paul and Elder McConkie on the central theme: It truly is critical to ask the right question. To Paul's concern, I would add that it is critical that the question being asked come from the inside (the questioner) and not the outside (any observer). As I read the piece in question, that's the message I hear. As the one being asked any question, it is critical that we make sure we understand exactly what is meant by the question and the motivation for it - in large part, the asker's willingness to listen and truly consider. Often, in order to do that, we must ask a question or two before we try to provide an answer. That "right question" can include the ones that Elder McConkie mentions - and probably did for the gentleman he referenced. Often, as with Paul, those questions do not apply to someone who truly is trying to understand. The problem is when someone reads Elder McConkie's questions, perceives them to the the only legitimate questions and applies them to everyone who questions. That, I believe is Paul's concern - and a legitimate one, given the human tendencies and failings we all share as responders.

The implication of the piece as a whole was that this particular man was not asking with an open mind in order to try to understand. I have been in those situations with both religious and academic conversations, and answers weren't the issue. If ears are open but minds and hearts are closed, there are no answers - just responses. Let me repeat that slightly differently: An "answer" that does not produce some level of understanding is merely a response.

I am a former school teacher, and I still am an educator at heart. I now am a salesman. When one of my students, children or potential clients asks me a question, the very first thing I try to do is determine what they mean by that question and what their motivation is for asking. I can offer many possible answers to almost any question imaginable, but those answers won't have any lasting effect if they do not address the actual question being asked AS IT IS PERCEIVED BY THE ONE WHO ASKS. They will not be real answers if they don't match the question within the questioner.

This is another example of the "one-size-does-not-fit-all" aspect of the Gospel that Paul described previously.
April 17, 2007 at 12:12 PM [# 3]Jared E.
Paul,

I'm glad you posted on this subject. After reading many of the responses on different blogs, I too was bothered by how quick many were to assume sin was the motivating factor in Dutcher's leaving the Church.

I've thought quite a bit about what motivates this line of thinking. Generally speaking, I think that someone who believes wholeheartedly in the Church cannot give credence to another persons doubts. Giving credence to another person's doubts, admits they are valid, and to the believer the doubts cannot be valid because the Church is true. This then leaves the person to concluded that doubts cannot be the motivating factor. Sin or desire for sin is a strong candidate for the 'true' reason for disbelief.

What do you think?
April 17, 2007 at 12:14 PM [# 4]Jared E.
And although Christfollower was a little abrasive in his assessment of Mormondom, I think a number of concerns he raises are valid.
April 17, 2007 at 12:38 PM [# 5]Paul
Here's the trouble as I see it. None of the concerns raised by Christfollower (and as far as I can tell, none of the many other similar concerns he might have raised) are a silver bullet proving that the Church isn't true. Many people, some reading this blog, are familiar with them all and still make room for deep belief.

Unfortunately, though, the effect of each of these concerns is compounded by the shock and even betrayal we experience when we learn them. We're taught to view the Church in binary terms, all black or all white, and it hits like a ton of bricks to recognize that the full color spectrum is there instead.

The unfortunate result of a binary mindset is that the only other option is "all false," which leads to disaffection and for many, a lot of resentment. Comments like the one assuming Dutcher to be a sinner only throw fuel on the fire, which is why I tried to convey the need to stop treating doubters as sinners and start understanding the real issues.
April 17, 2007 at 12:44 PM [# 6]Paul
Jared E, that is essentially what I believe and it's why I really do think McConkie's diversion questions are valid and should not be avoided by people who want to remain comfortable in their beliefs. Many people, including me, don't understand just how deep the rabbit hole goes until it's too late to restore their innocence. Thus if your primary goal is to feel good about your beliefs, ask McConkie's questions. But if you really want to help someone, you have to go deeper than blaming them for sins that likely don't exist. At least discover what the issues are so you can understand what the challenge really means to them.
April 17, 2007 at 1:06 PM [# 7]Jared E.
None of the concerns raised by Christfollower (and as far as I can tell, none of the many other similar concerns he might have raised) are a silver bullet proving that the Church isn't true.

I hear a lot of people say this, that there is no 'silver bullet'. Lets assume for a second that said silver bullet exists, what would it look like? I've heard much about how 'such and such' does not conclusively prove the church false, but very little about what people think would. What do you think?
April 17, 2007 at 1:07 PM [# 8]Donna
It is true that some members "speak of the Mormon Church as if it were the Celestial Kingdom embodied," as Paul stated. However. the statement is not factual. If it were, we'd all have been translated, having no further need of earthly experience to prove ourselves.

Years ago in a Saturday evening stake conference meeting our regional rep--Ellis Ivory (ever hear of Ivory Homes?) entitled his remarks, "The Church Is for Jerks, Too," asking, How else can they learn not be "jerks"? In other words, we are all imperfect beings striving (or should be striving) to become better. We are not perfect, and as a result individuals say and do some pretty "jerky" things from time to time, as evidenced by the response to the letter in the Herald.

However, he then pointed out, the "church" and the "gospel" are not synonymous. The imperfect "jerks" do not invalidate the Truth of gospel principles.

The surest way to find the right answers to the right questions--and to dispel doubts--is to look to the gospel, rather than the church. Other improving "jerks" can be stepping stones along the way to make the journey easier, but ultimately the answers come from the source of Truth and Light.







April 17, 2007 at 1:18 PM [# 9]Jared E.
The surest way to find the right answers to the right questions--and to dispel doubts--is to look to the gospel, rather than the church...ultimately the answers come from the source of Truth and Light.

I agree, but I suspect most would say that "the right answers to the right questions" are to be found in Mormondom, i.e. that the Saviors power is only truly efficacious within the Mormon religion. So I don't see how it is possible to separate the Church from the Gospel, at least not in the mind of most Mormons.
April 17, 2007 at 1:42 PM [# 10]Marco
The imperfect "jerks" do not invalidate the Truth of gospel principles.

It may be true that "jerks" are the ones who typically jump to the wrong conclusions about people leaving, but "Who in the ward don't you like?" isn't the right question, either. Jerks are superficial, the real issues are fundamental.
April 17, 2007 at 2:02 PM [# 11]Thomas
"And why was he so anxious to discredit God and find foolishness in scripture? Perhaps he ought to be asked, 'What commandment is it that you don't want to keep?” or “What blessings would you like to quit receiving?'"

The proper response to those questions would be "Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence."

Seriously. Each of those questions contains numerous sub-questions that the questioner is presuming to be already answered. Why is it true, for example, that someone who asks a question that "carries with it the seed of doubt" must be "anxious to discredit God"? That presumes that what is being presented as God's truth, actually is. To the contrary, a true worshipper of the God of truth does not "discredit" God by diligently striving to identify the truth, but serves Him.

And "What commandment is it that you don't want to keep?" is something along the lines of "When did you stop beating your wife?" That statement is discourteous, obnoxious, and arrogant, and seeing the name of the man who made it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Which commandments don't I want to keep? The ones that are human inventions. We ought to obey God rather than men.
April 17, 2007 at 3:46 PM [# 12]Ray
One of the biggest problems in the Church membership (probably at all levels, since all of us are human and have not conquered completely "the natural man") is that we want easy answers - "one-size-fits-all" solutions that don't require us to work out the messiness of the middle. I see that in just about every aspect of life, not just religion - and it is just as visible outside the Church as it is inside it.

Let me repeat, please don't make the mistake of criticizing Elder McConkie's questions SIMPLY because they do not apply to you OR because they are mis-applied by many. They do have a purpose and an application. The problem is that they are misunderstood and mis-applied, not that they are invalid. The "assumes facts not in evidence" is correct, IF you assume that Elder McConkie did not know the man in question; the context of the article makes it clear that he did, in fact, know the man and his wife quite well. The point everyone is making, I believe, is that such "assumes facts not in evidence" questions are too often the norm for people who refuse to or cannot consider other possibilities. I think we all agree on that.
April 17, 2007 at 3:47 PM [# 13]Ron
"Christfollower," in an earlier thread on this blog site, the statement by President Hinckley that "he didn't know that we teach" such and such was raised and commented upon.

After I'd read the numerous comments about this and was leaving my computer, I thought, "Well, I know what President Hinckley meant, but I'm not sure I'd have said it quite--! And then I abruptly realized that I myself had used the exact same phrase he had used.

And I realized that I'd heard my grandfather and my father use that phrase many, many times, and that I'd often used it, too--and, quite obviously, still do.

Unlike what those words have been widely interpreted to mean, never did my grandfather or my father or myself use the phrase in the sense of "I'm ignorant of" or "I lack knowledge about"; instead, it was polite usage, a non-confrontational manner, of saying, "I wouldn't put it that way."

All President Hinckley was saying was that we don't actively teach that topic, which is indeed a true statement. I don't know recall what the topic of the interviewer's question was, but you won't find that particular in any current Church manual, the _Ensign_, etc. President Hinckley did acknowledge in the interview that he had read about the matter, which confirms that he wasn't professing ignorance, nor was he claiming the Church had never taught it.

Clearly, the critics who jumped on that bandwagon didn't take the time or make the effort to be sure they understood what President Hincklely meant. Checking this year's usage guides--what the phrase might mean today--won't help, as President Hinckley didn't learn his conversational phrases this decade; usage guides from 50 or 100 years ago would reveal the meaning I grew up with and have used, and which President Hincklely also used.

Not that I'm quite his age! :)

And while I agree with you that Moses was indeed a prophet, he was not perfect. The Lord became quite angry with him when he put off the circumcision of his son, enough so to threaten to take his life. And his wife was also upset with him about it, and finally performed the circumcision herself. I don't intend that to be critical of Moses; I'd have a hard time myself with that commandment. And of course the Lord was also not pleased with Moses for striking the rock instead of merely commanding the water to come forth. So yes, he was indeed a prophet. But his contemporaries found it easy to find things to criticize in him.

As for Brother McConkie's statement, Ray was right: His answer to that woman about her husband was based on information she had given him and his impressions about that man. It wouldn't be wise to suppose that everyone asking questions had committed grave sin; but by the time he answered that sister, he knew the husband's attitude--and that's what makes the difference.

Surely, not all questioners have committed serious sins. Nonetheless, that is often the case. I've had nearly 20 years of experience in Church callings that have involved me in disciplinary decisions about members, and sin is a frequent companion of those who criticize, often by means of the questions they raise.

I've encountered others who question and criticize because they feel better qualified for a position than the person called, and still others who nurture resentment (and some, even rebellion) against any person, even the Lord, "telling" them what to do, or because they feel the Church (or some unit of it) didn't handle things the way they personally would have handled them.

Notwithstanding all that, there are many who honesty question. But, again in my experience, they typically question with respect; often, they confide in only a few others, rather than making a spectacle of their doubts or questions.

For me, the key factor is to be sure I've evaluated myself when I have questions--the motivations behind the questions; how I'm positing them; whether I'm trying to involve others--and, if so, for what reasons; whether I'm primarily looking for confirmation of what I've already decided; and so on. Without revelation, no one else can know why I do what I do, why I ask or say what I do.

For me, it wasn't appropriate for someone to speculate in print about what "sin" Dutcher may have committed. On the other hand, I wonder why Dutcher openly published his statement. After all, he's a professional and therefore knows very well who's "in to" making Mormon movies and, for the upcoming generation, he knows who teaches film curricula at the schools most LDS students would attend. If that were his true and sole audience, why didn't he address that audience directly?

My point is that by making a private matter a public announcement, he "invited" insensitive and judgmental statements like the one he got. In saying that, I'm not trying to justify what I still consider to be an inappropriate public speculation about whether or not he "sinned."
April 17, 2007 at 3:58 PM [# 14]Thomas
"I've had nearly 20 years of experience in Church callings that have involved me in disciplinary decisions about members, and sin is a frequent companion of those who criticize, often by means of the questions they raise."

The question is which came first, the doubting chicken or the sinful egg?

It's often pointed out that questioning the Church's authority, and failure to follow its dictates, often go hand in hand. Which causes which? The Church asks a great deal of its members. It asks too much, in fact, to expect of a person who is not genuinely convinced the Church is true.

While it's true that "faith precedes the miracle," it's also true that "the husbandman must be first partaker of the fruits." You don't spend hours toiling in the broiling sun unless you've learned and are convinced that figs or wheat or whatever is really good. I see people spend years going through the motions of membership, trying to be convinced of some really implausible things -- and when that unrequitted labor finally exhausts them, and they stop paying tithing or revert to pre-1933 Word of Wisdom standards, their fellow saints self-righteously conclude that it was the conduct that caused the doubt, and not the other way around.
April 17, 2007 at 3:59 PM [# 15]Thomas
BTW, as much as I admire Richard Dutcher, I have to acknowledge that personal vanity is not exactly rare among filmmakers generally. So I wouldn't write it completely out of the equation in this particular case.
April 17, 2007 at 5:45 PM [# 16]Jared E.
Ron Said: All President Hinckley was saying was that we don't actively teach that topic, which is indeed a true statement. I don't know recall what the topic of the interviewer's question was, but you won't find that particular in any current Church manual, the _Ensign_, etc.

I know this is a bit of a threadjack, but I must respond to the above. Hinckley was responding to the following question from Time magazine:

...about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?

Hinckley responds:

I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it.

I've heard many say, including the people at FAIR that this statement is factually correct. Those at FAIR state that:

The answer is correct; we do not teach in our classes today that God was a man just like us.

This is just not true. I taught Gospel Essentials for the last two years and in the manual there is a lesson on Exaltation. On page 305 of the manual it states:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...He was once a man like us;...God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did"(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

This is very clear and is found in the most basic manual of the Church, the one we use to teach new members. So was what Hinckley said factually correct as FAIR and others claim? Clearly not. Now whether or not his response was justified is another question.

Sorry for the threadjack, I just had to throw my 10 cents in.
April 17, 2007 at 6:00 PM [# 17]Paul
Jared, if I can threadjack on your blog you're certainly welcome to on mine!

I didn't know the manuals still held that kind of teaching, but even if they didn't, the point is that we are frequently left wondering what exactly we are meant to believe. Consider this quote from Bill McKeever:

"Are Latter-day Saints given the option to treat comments from general authorities as they would a restaurant salad bar, picking and choosing only what appeals to them? Well, according to one LDS Church manual, 'Prophets have the right to personal opinions. Not every word they speak should be thought of as an official interpretation or pronouncement. However, their discourses to the Saints, and their official writings should be considered products of their official prophetic calling and should be heeded' (Teachings of the Living Prophets, p.21.) Are we to assume that the LDS leadership and its PR department don't read their church's manuals? Or are we to assume that they hope the membership doesn't? One thing is abundantly clear and that is the LDS Church is of often guilty of teaching two messages -- one for the membership and one for the general public.


Whether Hinckley's response to Time was factually correct or not, it seems clear it falls into this category--one teaching for them, another for us. Now I am coming around to the idea that such a position is not a reflection of "guilt" so much as a reflection of reality, but it takes A LOT of effort for a true-believing Mormon to reach that conclusion without getting stuck feeling bitter.
April 17, 2007 at 6:30 PM [# 18]Jared E.
Paul,

I don't mean to rag on President Hinckley, but I find many of his statement upon touchy issues to be rather disingenuous. I find members wanting to distance Hinckley from much of the difficulties of the last few decades.

His response to questions about Blacks in the Church is another good example. He repeatedly denies knowing any reason why Blacks were denied the priesthood. Anyone wishing to know more about the subject, and how the hierarchy viewed it around the time before and of the change should read Lester Bush's article. In this article Bush talks about the writing of his groundbreaking study of the historical nature of the Blacks+Priesthood question. It must be said that Bush is a true believer, and approaches the subject matter with the best of intentions. It is obvious that Hinckley (and anyone else in the Hierarchy at the time) knows more about the reasons than they let on.

But the larger question is why the disingenuous-ness? The more I've studied the actions of the Church heiarchy, the more I've seem it function according to a utilitarian ethic, i.e. whatever action provides the best result for the Church, is justified. The Church's handling of it's disavowal of Polygamy is a case in point. I believe Hinckley's comments are also of this same vein. The Church is seeking to make itself more commonly respected, more mainstream. The questions Hinckley seems to fudge on are the ones which tend to embarrass us as a religion. So fudging the questions is ok, because doing so brings about the desired results, i.e. Mormonism appearing more mainstream.
April 17, 2007 at 11:02 PM [# 19]Ron
Jared E. said: "This is just not true. I taught Gospel Essentials for the last two years and in the manual there is a lesson on Exaltation. On page 305 of the manual it states:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...He was once a man like us;...God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did"(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

This is very clear and is found in the most basic manual of the Church, the one we use to teach new members. So was what Hinckley said factually correct as FAIR and others claim? Clearly not. Now whether or not his response was justified is another question."

Jared, I wasn't aware that the statement was in that manual, either. If you hadn't been teaching the course, you probably would no t have been aware of it, either--unless someone else had pointed it out to you.

We often don't appreciate the complexity of the Church and the enormous responsibilities of the Brethren.

I worked for a number of years in a capacity in which I periodically had to send instructional materials to Salt Lake for Correlation Review. The Brethren HAVE to rely on those called to serve on Correlation Review committees to know the gospel, Church procedure, etc., thoroughly. Yes, the member of the Seventy with the Correlation responsibility at the moment should review the Correlation Review committee report on everything, but it isn't realistic to expect that they read everything submitted--there aren't enough hours in a day for them to do that. And, in my experience, even the salaried directors of Correlation (non-General Authorities) do not and cannot read them all--not even every item on the Correlation Review reports.

The Brethren do read and approve all new material, but they depend heavily on committees to have reviewed that material first and to identify (in "executive summary" fashion) any possible problems or ambiguities. That procedure is consistent with Church commitments to delegation.

The tone of your posting suggests that you handled the difference between your knowledge and theirs in an appropriate manner--not ranting and raving that they "lied." From my experience, President Hinckley's (and FAIR's) comment would simply have been an oversight.

As a temple worker, I'm aware that many General Authorities need assistance with their part of the endowment ordinance. Does it bother me that they don't know it? Not at all. My responsibility, as a worker, is to know it perfectly and to help others who need it in a kindly manner. Their responsibilities are so great that it's impractical to expect them, as mortals, to know it perfectly. Even released workers forget at times when they don't use it constantly.

As John the Revelator described his vision of pre-mortal life, he characterized Lucifer as "the accuser of our brethren,...which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

So far as I know, none of the Brethren has ever expanded on that concept. But as I've contemplated it on several occasions, I suppose Lucifer may have focused on the issue of agency. We could imagine observations like, "Well, what if these foreordained prophets use THEIR agency to decide that the criticism and rejection is just too great and so they DON'T teach you (us} the way back? What happens to you (us) then? And what if Jehovah uses HIS agency and decides that the burden of the Atonement is just too great? Either way, you're really in trouble!" That's merely conjecture on my part, of course, but it seems to fit with what John said and with what we know of human nature.

Of course, what John meant and what Lucifer actually said and why are irrelevant--unless I can learn and profit from understanding something about it.

And as a result of contemplating that verse, and from my life's experiences and observations of others, I, for one, have chosen NOT to be an accuser of the brethren, day OR night.
April 18, 2007 at 12:40 AM [# 20]marinamo
On the topic of asking questions:

I still remember the almost shock I experienced when my bishop at the time said in a talk he was giving that there was absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions--it was only wrong not to look for answers to our questions. I was 21 years old and yet being given permission to doubt without guilt was a new concept for me.

(of course, some may argue that I was better off before I started finding answers...)
April 18, 2007 at 1:52 AM [# 21]don't know Jack!
Time Magazine just didn't ask the right questions.

I bet the guy was just feeling guilting from committing some heinous sin when he interviewed GBH.
April 18, 2007 at 2:23 AM [# 22]don't know Jack!
It seems like Christfollower and I had exactly the same questions:

Is the Church lead by a prophet of God?

It seems like the right question. It seems like a fundamental question that should be answered in the affirmative; but here was response I got when I was really looking for the truth:

Now we are at war. Great forces have been mobilized and will continue to be. Political alliances are being forged. We do not know how long this conflict will last. We do not know what it will cost in lives and treasure. We do not know the manner in which it will be carried out. It could impact the work of the Church in various ways.

No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time. . .

I do not know what the future holds. . .

Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. . .

Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Times in Which We Live,” Ensign, Nov 2001, 72

Call that answer what you will. Say I was asking the wrong question. Comfort your own doubts by accusing me of some terrible sin. Say what makes you feel comfortable. But I see no prophecy and no prophet in those or any other remarks the man has made. I do not need to ask his understanding of well established treachings he calls "a little couplet" about God once being a man. I do not need to know know that he believes denying the priesthood to Blacks was ok. I do not need to know about his spirit of discernment in buying the white salamander letter. I merely need to ask if he really receives revelation and talks to God as the missionaries teach.

That is the question. It must be the wrong one.
April 18, 2007 at 4:55 AM [# 23]Ron
"Don't Know Jack" raises an interesting question--that, itself, raises other interesting questions.

Prophets generally receive answers to questions they ASK. When a prophet is first called (e.g., Enoch, Noah, Lehi), the Heavens often initiate the flow of revelation. But generally, the prophet seeking answers must indeed SEEK--ask (e.g., Alma about unrepentant members, Joseph Smith).

So the question arises, WHY would President Hinckley ASK for details about what's to happen?

How would we as members respond to details about what is going to transpire?

Well, we sure do a lot of quibbling about other things he says, so I'm not terribly optimistic that we'd respond in a useful way.

Some would rush around like chickens with their heads cut off. Some years ago when one of the Brethren suggested in General Conference urged members to set of goal of trying to have a year's supply of food, clothing, and fuel by the next General Conference, members assumed he was also suggesting that something terrible would happen right after that "deadline."

A friend of mine managed the local store of a major food chain, and told me of a woman who drove up in a Cadillac, asked specifically for him as the the manager, and had 40-100# bags of flour delivered to her home. The delivery guys noticed that she hadn't prepared to store that much flour, so of course it would soon spoil.

Our stake president at that same time was co-owner of another grocery store. He later said that he'd always supposed that he had plenty of food storage, since he could get what he needed at any time, just by going to his store. But members' response to that conference address convinced him otherwise. He said people were so frantic to stock up that he was concerned that they might break down the door before his store opened the next morning.

Many of us don't respond well--with humility and understanding of the intent--to our leaders' counsel. So why would the Lord--or His prophet--say what would stir us all up and cause commotion rather than progress?

I remember President Hincklely's remarks and, frankly, I was a little disappointed at first. Not that I doubted his prophetic calling, but rather when he introduced his topic, I--like so many others--wanted some juicy morsel to talk about. Then I repented and realized what his message was: We don't have the mindset, nor the commitment in fact, as a people, to deal with such details right now.

The way we support the media, even in LDS areas, reveals indeed our appetite for the sensational.

So why should the Lord reveal through His prophet the details of what lies immediately ahead? Wouldn't "knowing" that merely lead to our greater condemnation for not acting on what we've been told?

And how would the media handle it? In today's world, President Hinckley couldn't possibly give such details to members without some of them leaking it to the media. The media would then unleash all the "experts" to "prove" that the prophecy was "false." The result would, again, be an uproar. That wouldn't result in progress.

The logical conclusion is that President Hinckley didn't "know" those things because he hadn't felt a need to ASK to know them. We wouldn't respond properly to that information, even if we had it.

What was the essence of President Hinckley's message? Simply: Calm down! Go about your callings and other responsibilities! Don't panic about what's happening in the world! The Lord's in charge, and things will happen according to His will!

And we have a number of evidences that President Hinckley is indeed a prophet, the Lord's prophet. He may not prophecy about all the things we'd like, but he certainly is a prophet, seer, and revelator about things that matter, right now, to the Lord. Examples are the increase in the number of temples and the establishment of "small" temples to bring these essential ordinances closer to so many more of the people; the proclamation on the family; the on-going callings and releasings of general Church officers and stake, mission, and temple presidents; the assigning of missionaries to fields of labor where the Lord can best use them; and so on.

The scriptures provide a parade-view of prophets declaring what the Lord knows the people need at the time, while--most of the time--the people don't want to hear that; they want to hear what they want to hear.

Still, those who "have ears to hear" have plenty to hear.

I don't intend this to be judgmental of any poster to this site. My purpose merely is to broaden our perspectives of the questions in point.

April 18, 2007 at 7:28 AM [# 24]Disprized
When the state of Utah wanted to do away with death by the firing squad, which was instituted for the purpose of spilling one's blood on the ground for forgiveness (aka blood atonement), a state representative asked the Church if it was all right to do so. The ("True") Church responded by saying they never taught blood atonement, which we all know is ridiculous, after all, Jesus Christ is the Ultimate blood atonement.. How many more lies can the church tell and expect its members to remain staunch followers? I suspect they are just getting started.
April 18, 2007 at 7:31 AM [# 25]don't know Jack
The logical conclusion is that President Hinckley didn't "know" those things because he hadn't felt a need to ASK to know them.

Of course, an equally logical conclusion is that he is not a prophet, and does not talk to God as the Church teaches
.
And how would the media handle it? In today's world, President Hinckley couldn't possibly give such details to members without some of them leaking it to the media. The media would then unleash all the "experts" to "prove" that the prophecy was "false." The result would, again, be an uproar. That wouldn't result in progress.

So because his revelations might be proven false, modern prophets no longer prophesy about issues important to the world? Did John the Revelator keep quiet because he might be proven wrong, scrutinized or ridiculed? Did Isaiah not prophesy because he was afraid he might be wrong about a savioir being born? Did Mohammed not reveal the Quran because he was afraid the oher Arabs would challenge him?

All religions build churches, so selection of sites for temples is not evidence of prophesy. All religions appont ministers and administrators, and many send out missionaries. No prophesy required. All religions make policy statements based on their moral codes, so I cannot accept the proclamation on the family as evidence of prophesy, seership or revelation. If you have examples of revelations such as Joseph Smith claimed to reveal, let me know, but church administration doesn't fly-- all churches do it, with or without special gifts from God.

The sincere, fundamental question-- right or wrong-- remains: Is Gordon Hinckley a prophet, seer and revelator as the church teaches?
April 18, 2007 at 7:53 AM [# 26]Ray
This is going to be hard to say the way I mean it and not sound judgmental and naive, so I am going to have to rely on all of you who have read my previous posts and understand I am neither.

My father worked as a janitor, and my parents raised 8 children. My dad used to praise my mom by saying, "If we came home one day to a completely empty house, and it was obvious a thief had taken everything we own, Nora would tell me, 'He must have needed it a lot more than we do.'" Notice I said he shared that to praise her. You and I and most rational people know that my mother's statement would not be factual, but it was how she personally chose to follow the command, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

I deeply admire that attitude (not necessarily the conclusion, but the attitude), and I have tried hard to emulate it in my life. I don't succeed as well as my mother, but she needed it psychologically more than I do. I'm fine with that difference, but I still try to emulate her to the best of my own ability.

Humans tend to want others to do and say and be what we want them to do and say and be. We tend to judge people by that same standard: Do they do and say and be what I want them to do and say and be. If so, they are good people; if not, they are bad people - or dis-ingenuous - or dishonest - or brain-washed - or ignorant - or naive - or whatever other label we choose to attach to them.

When I hear someone say something, I automatically try to figure out how what they said could be true - or, at least, how it can help me understand something better. In other words, I look for an intellectual framework within which I can learn from what they said. I was not always that way, but I have worked hard to develop that habit.

Years ago, I had a job that required me to drive through rural areas where the only thing on the radio was the local religious broadcast. One day, I found myself criticizing the preacher's message. Honestly, it was a message that I think had an abominable foundation, and I mean that literally. Right in the middle of that sermon, the preacher made a comment that made my head snap back in amazement - and I found myself thinking, "Wow! I have never thought about it that way." I spent the next few minutes reflecting on that comment and gaining an incredible, new perspective on something I had believed for years. Ever since that experience, I have tried hard to look for similar opportunities and not spend my time and energy nit-picking the stuff that doesn't enlighten me.

Of course, my mind registers the interpretations with which I disagree, but I try very hard to learn something new (at least a new perspective, phrasing, insight, etc.) - something that I can learn from the preacher even if I don't accept or agree with other parts of the sermon - and simply ignore the interpretations I can't accept. I have received many amazing insights over the years by doing so. That also is true of how I listen to political speeches, business lectures and presentations, complaints from my children, and any other thing I hear. I try to listen to learn, not hear to argue.

Can I argue? Yes; I actually am quite good at debate if I let myself go and fully engage. I was an excellent debater in school, and I founded and taught a debate class as a teacher. I have learned, however, that looking for personal understanding makes me much happier and content than listening in order to debate. Debate worked for me at one point in my life, but I now have far too many things to do and learn to spend my time focusing on the negative. That is my own choice - the way I consciously have chosen to exercise my agency. It is not the best approach for many, but it works well for me. It can be dismissed by those who don't know me as simply being transmitted from my parents, but I have faced the choice and chosen my path for the person I believe it will allow me to become.

Every concern or point that has been mentioned in this thread has a response I could give, but I just don't care enough about most of them to do so - particularly from those who already have made up their minds and aren't trying to understand another point of view. I know they are important to them, but they are not important to me.

I respond to some (like Paul and Marina and Jared) because I think they care to hear what I have to say, and I usually learn from them; I do not respond to others because I feel they couldn't care less about what I feel, and I don't learn from them. I am doing exactly what Elder McConkie described in the quote that started all of this - trying to understand meaning and motive so I can respond properly rather than launching "the only true answer."
April 18, 2007 at 8:29 AM [# 27]Paul
I don't know if it's possible to discuss these kinds of things without airing some pretty intense disappointments on one side and closely-held beliefs on the other--hopefully it will stay civil so it won't be a wasted discussion...

Ron's recent response re: Hinckley, as don't know Jack points out, is circular and addresses only the issues that believers will agree with, but I partially agree with each side. dkJ's question is only addressable subjectively and therefore seems problematic--if GBH is a prophet, finding an answer that satisfies us depends on our supposing we understand God, which is tenuous at best. Even if he isn't a prophet, it might not make sense to apply our personal expectations onto the duties of another person.

Since the Church relies on the transition from one leader to the next under God's direction, it makes more sense to me to ask whether Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the earliest leaders were prophets. If they were, GBH is. They were leaders long before our church started behaving like a corporation with a fleet of PR professionals handling its image--a distinction that is quite obvious.

Perhaps the right question for me is, "How much leeway would God give his prophets?" The Church's own way of teaching on the subject seems to be, "None! It's black or white!" but I don't believe it. I find it ironic that for me trying to believe the Church at all involves disputing the ubiquitous teaching that it is all true.
April 18, 2007 at 10:21 AM [# 28]Jared E.
Ray,
I agree with much of what you said, and am certainly the last to claim that Hinckley is a charlatan. The man has a lot of good to say.

It seems that many here want the test for 'prophet' to be honesty. If a man is a prophet, he can not be dishonest. This is obviously a spurious relationship. I expect that a person's conclusions about whether Hinckley is a prophet will be based more upon subjective experience and cultural bias than on anything else.

Ron Said: Yes, the member of the Seventy with the Correlation responsibility at the moment should review the Correlation Review committee report on everything, but it isn't realistic to expect that they read everything submitted--there aren't enough hours in a day for them to do that.

I would agree with the above if the doctrinal statement in question was more obscure. But ask any seasoned Mormon if God was once a man, and they will say yes. Hinckley knows we believe this. It isn't necessary for Hinckley to know "such and such is taught in our Church, and it can be found referenced in this manual". It is only necessary for him to know that it is a part of our theology, and widely believed throughout the membership, he knows these things.

Splitting hairs about whether he could have been 'technically' correct is also unnecessary. We all know there is more to being honest than having our answers being 'technically correct'. To answer a question in a way which is intentionally misleading is being dishonest. In my view this is how he responded.

But as I said above this doesn't preclude him from being a 'prophet'. If it is your world view that prophets never lie, I strongly suggest you avoid the Nauvoo and post-manifesto periods of Church history.
April 18, 2007 at 10:32 AM [# 29]Dave (via Ron)
I started to comment on this thread, and ended up responding to Dutcher’s article instead. While I enjoyed writing it, it wasn’t quite the topic I wanted to reply to. Paul, if you want to host responses to his article I’ll post it there. Otherwise, I’ll email it to you and the rest of the world will never know what I said about it. (As Monty Python would add here, “and there was much rejoicing…yeah…”)

The notion (ok, reality) that Mormon society believes ‘serious sin always precedes apostasy’ is a result of human nature, as Ray says. We silly humans love to categorize and label things. It’s part of who we are. The down-side of classifying things is that everything must fit in a box. “Big rocks” fit in this large box under my lab bench. “Little rocks” fit in this box on the corner of my desk. Problems arise when we have an item that doesn’t fit our classification. Where will my medium-sized rocks go? What about medium-large? Medium-small? You see my point.

This problem is even harder to solve when we’re dealing with ‘processes’, not ‘items’ or ‘events’. People—as individuals—are very complex processes. And yet, we still label them. Fat. Ugly. Stupid. French (is that redundant? ?), Mormon. They’re all labels that identify the whole of a complex being that hasn’t yet completed its purpose. For each person, every label looks different. My ‘fat’ may not look like your ‘fat’. Your ‘stupid’ box may largely coincide with my ‘Jehovah’s witness’ box. Then we take it a step further, almost without thought: fat people are lazy. Ugly people have ‘really sweet spirits.’ Stupid—well, beauty’s only skin deep, but stupid is forever. Our ‘fat’ boxes may not be identical, but many would still agree with me that ‘fat’ is also ‘lazy’. And so humanity goes.

Apostasy is also a process. Oliver Cowdry, as an example, apostatized. After the fact it’s easier to pick out events in the process and label them. When the outcome is undesirable, we point to the examples and say, “Look what happened to Oliver. Don’t let that happen to you.” Voila! The process of Oliver’s apostasy has just become an event; a single, big ‘thing’ that he did and Mormons everywhere will label it and point to his ‘big’ sin as if it was the beginning, middle and end of it all. But in my own life there’s no magic fence, no glowing neon sign that says “Apostasy is here, grape jelly is on aisle 12.”

The perception that serious sin is the reason for apostasy is very much the-chicken-or-the-egg as Thomas said. Occasionally major sin causes loss of faith. For me personally these things start gradually, on an exponential curve: ever so slight at first, but abruptly leaping off the charts right about where my awareness of it kicks in. I believe my experience is far more common. (But maybe I’m not in your ‘common’ box…)

The thing is, answering these questions becomes so intensely complicated for us as outsiders to the process (and often to me as an insider of my own) that they serve little practical purpose in answering. Did Dutcher sin a great sin that resulted in his choice to ‘unbelieve’? Maybe, who knows besides him and the Lord? Who cares? I mean, to who else is this answer vital?

Really, all I can hope for is an answer for me. Where is my life today on the faith-vs.-apostasy chart? What thoughts, words, actions put me there? Do I want to make a change tomorrow? If I really honestly tried to answer those 3 questions completely every day, I’d spend all my time plotting where I am, and getting nowhere in the process. With all that, why should I worry about what someone else is doing?

Really, Paul, I guess this all comes full circle to your (implied) statements about others judging Dutcher so harshly when they have no business doing so and ought rather to tend their own gardens, so to speak. That’s an excellent ideal. Can I not then fairly ask you the same question? Why are you so caught up and bothered by this response, even this mainstream Mormon belief that others are so quick to throw out at Dutcher?

The notion of the church as the “Celestial Kingdom embodied” I quickly agree with you on. You now see beyond the comfort of putting yourself in the ‘celestial-already box’. You stated “[not] long ago I could have [written] that”. So how about a little more tolerance for your ‘brothers and sisters’ who aren’t as far along that path yet? Change mainstream Mormon culture by living the tolerance for others that is so badly needed. Tactfully point out the error in thinking when you can.

Study, learn and live the gospel. Grasp the Word firmly. Fit the church around that in a way that it will strengthen your hold, not weaken it. Remember the gospel is true; the church is just a mortal manifestation of a bunch of jerks all trying to do the same in the best way they know how. Every one of us fails miserably. Most of us do so on a daily basis. Don’t let us slow you down.

Remember, this is a test. It is only a test. Had it been a real emergency, you would’ve been given further instructions…
April 18, 2007 at 12:34 PM [# 30]Paul
Paul, I guess this all comes full circle to your (implied) statements about others judging Dutcher so harshly when they have no business doing so and ought rather to tend their own gardens, so to speak.

I'll have to become a better editor and write more concise entries. My goal in writing this was not to encourage people to mind their own business; the judgmental comment I included about Dutcher was merely the springboard that gave my essay legs. The point I meant to convey was that we can't help people overcome doubts if we automatically mistake their motives. I suppose that is built around a "don't judge me" principle, but that isn't the point.

The point is, our religion makes believing extremely difficult for many people. How are doubters supposed to accept advice from people who discount their doubts without taking time to understand what the real issues are? Since you brought up Monty Python, imagine holding an allegedly dead parrot and being told by the pet store owner your bird is merely tired after a prolonged squawk. If someone comes to you with a dead bird, you can't just rattle the cage and expect the bird to eat a cracker.

Please don't take off on this as if I were applying it to every believing Mormon in the world, or even to any specific reader here. Many of you continue to be tremendously helpful, particularly my wife and Ray, and I wrote this entry in the hope of encouraging similar understanding from whomever might read it.

(My apologies if I lost you with references to a 30-year-old comedy sketch--you can get up to speed in roughly 3.5 minutes...)
April 18, 2007 at 3:47 PM [# 31]Ray
I consider a dead parrot, killer rabbit or Black Knight reference essential to any understanding of life, as I also consider almost any reference to "The Princess Bride" - which, by the way, was 1000 times funnier in book form.
April 18, 2007 at 3:48 PM [# 32]
It's no wonder everybody lost interest in the Dutcher thing. Who cares about some self-absorbed apostate? Not me!

As for the McConkie article. . . first of all I'm pretty sure he's not an Elder. I took a class from him at BYU and this definitely sounds like something he would say. He was harsh and pushy. I'll add he was my least favorite religion professor by a long shot! The defense for his "right questions" given here by some, is that it was meant for that specific man, and could also be applied to some specific others. Here's my beef-- if it wasn't meant for everyone (or at least nearly so), they shouldn't have printed it.

I am interested in all this "why can't the Brethren just tell it straight" stuff. For me, as it should be for everyone, it comes down to making up my own mind. If subjects like blacks and the priesthood, whether God was once a man, and so on, are dodged by those questioned, or answered incompletely or not to my satisfaction, I'm content that I'm allowed to decide for myself. I don't like being told what to do or think, so thank you, I will make up my own mind.

Believing shouldn't be difficult, Paul. If you trust and believe what you've decided for yourself and not what somebody told you to believe, it should be quite easy. When you're honest and fair in your searching and questioning, you can trust what you feel. And then leave it at that.

April 18, 2007 at 3:49 PM [# 33]Wendy
Oops, that last one was me. Forgot to put in my name.

As long as I'm here again, wouldn't it be more fun to talk about the sad state of our food supply and how to better take our nutrition by the reins? I'd like that better. . .
April 18, 2007 at 3:51 PM [# 34]Ray
Forgot to add: Dave, I love your combination of intellect and spiritual insight. Talk about the pitfalls of judging according to preconceived or stereotyped notions and appearances! (For all of you outside the family, don't ask. It's an inside comment not meant for discussion.)
April 18, 2007 at 8:59 PM [# 35]marinamo
“If you trust and believe what you've decided for yourself and not what somebody told you to believe, it should be quite easy. When you're honest and fair in your searching and questioning, you can trust what you feel.”

I am happy for you, Wendy, that this is easy for you, really I am, but it was not at all easy for me. For me to even come to the point where I believed I could righteously decide for myself was a long, long, uncomfortable, sometimes even painful journey. Easy was not even within reach. To then trust my own heart and mind and spirit in believing what I came to believe…again, not easy at all.

I do not begrudge you the ease or the way in which you have found peace for yourself. I only want to point out that for many people it is not easy, not even close.
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